Edoardo Rubini

	•	I veneti: un popolo da 3000 anni - Millo Bozzolan

	•	Il Venetico, la lingua del più antico popolo d'Europa

	(Venetic, the language of the oldest nation of Europe)

	•	Giustizia Veneta - (Venetian Justice)

	•	Eminenza Reverendissima - (Italian Version)

	•	Brand new book on Venetic Justice

	•	Social structure of ancient Veneti and customary law in Medieval Venice

	•	Quaderni Veneti di Coscienza Etnica

Jože Škulj


	•	PISMO J. ŠKULJA Petru Štihu. Seveda pismo ni bilo objavljeno, kaj šele da bi Štih nanj odgovoril.- Dec. 15, 2005


	•	Etruscans, Veneti and Slovenians - for readers, who ar particularly interested in their genetic (DNA) origins


	•	Lexical self-dating


	•	Zgodovinarji so zaskrbljeni - May 4, 2005


	•	Slovenian Roots; what genes reveal - May 13, 2004


	•	Relationship between Indian Populations and Europeans June 16, 2003

	•	J. Skulj - Letter to Prof. Priestly - Re: Delo article April 4/03

	•	J. Skulj - Re: Linguistic and genetic approach to pre-history Mar 17/03

	•	J. Skulj (P. Eng) - Etnogeneza March 4, 2003

	•	J. Skulj (P. Eng) - Letter to Dr. Susel, Ameriska Domovina 2-15-03

	•	J. Skulj (P. Eng.) - Letter to Prof. Timothy Pogacar January 17, 2003

	"Vandals, Veneti, Windischer: The Pitfalls of Amateur Historical Linguistics",

	by Prof. Tom Priestly.

Igor Pirnovar

Igor Pirnovar's latest additions to his Veneti project in English and Slovenian language:

http://sloveneti.tripod.com/veg/e/Ven/triglav_e.html - Triglav (Trihead, Trinity), The Vends and the Slavs

http://sloveneti.tripod.com/veg/s/Ven/triglav_s.html

http://sloveneti.tripod.com/veg/e/Ven/slovieni_rusia_e.html - Slovieni - Veneti in Russia, Forum Veneti Part I

http://sloveneti.tripod.com/veg/s/Ven/slovieni_rusia_s.html

http://sloveneti.tripod.com/veg/e/MiscEtn/Vendi_e.html - The Vends in Scandinavia

http://sloveneti.tripod.com/veg/s/MiscEtn/Vendi_s.html

A. Ambrozic's Commentary on Andres Pääbo's Veneti Language

http://sloveneti.tripod.com/veg/e/Ven/VeLang-Ambrz-o-aPaaboVJ_e.html - A. Ambrozic's Commentary

http://sloveneti.tripod.com/veg/s/Ven/VeLang-Ambrz-o-aPaaboVJ_s.html

	•	Erroneous chronology pleases the opponents of Venetic Theory

	•	Antique Europe: (http://sloveneti.tripod.com/)

	•	Pred in po-anticna Evropa: (http://sloveneti.tripod.com/)

	•	Dobrodoshli k Venetom

	•	Zakaj smo Slovenci tako odmaknjeni od lastne Zgodovine

Tristan Mandon

	•	Le livre Veneti : Premiers constructeurs du Communauté européen...

	par Tristan Mandon - Racines et Traditions en Pays d'Europe

	•	Belin, ou Belenos

	http://racines.traditions.free.fr/apollond/belvenet.pdf

Simone Arnoffi

	•	Simone Arnoffi

Tareq Y. Ismael

	•	Tareq Y. Ismael, University of Calgary, Alberta

Milan Smolej


	•	Interview

Manfred Kasokat

	•	Oderwenden

Jozica Gerden


	•	Veneti-Wends-Windische - Slovenia


	http://forums.delphiforums.com/VENETI


	•	Potovanje Skozi Cas - Jozica Gerden and Petr Jandacek


	•	2. Mednarobni Posvet Venetologov ...


	•	First Wends (Veneti) in Australia


	•	Prvi Veneti v Avstraliji

Guerriero Venetico, donato da Millo Bozzolan ad Europa Veneta

I veneti: un popolo da 3000 anni

Millo Bozzolan,

Seren del Grappa

May 15, 2009

I veneti sono popolo e nazione da circa 3000 anni, cioè dall’epoca protostorica ad oggi, con buona pace di chi non si considera tale, pur essendo nato in questa terra. Uno dei più grandi studiosi dei popoli preromani, Massimo Pallottino scrive infatti: «Una caratterizzazione etnico-culturale ben definita – tra le meglio definite di tutte le compagini regionali dell’Italia preromana – s’incontra nel Veneto dove, dalla già specializzata “facies” locale “protovillanoviana”, nasce al’inizio dell’età del Ferro (IX-VIII secolo) la civiltà che chiamiamo “paleoveneta” o “atestina… la sorprendente continuità di questo fenomeno ci assicura che esso rappresenta l’ethnos dei Veneti nei loro confini tra il fiume Adige, le Alpi e l’Istria».

Il termine “venetkens” fu scoperto in una scritta trovata a Vicenza, e la datazione ci porta al 2500 a.C., oltre ai reperti venetici che spaziano dalla Carinzia, all’Emilia, all’attuale Slovenia. I veneti mantennero la loro peculiarità, come alleati dei romani e quando cadde l’impero, essi continuarono ed essere considerati tali al di là dei confini, che si erano apparentemente ristretti ai bordi della laguna. Un illustre personaggio, storico e cronista dell’Evo antico, Paolo Diacono, precisa infatti, nella sua “Historia Longobardorum”, che deve ritenersi territorio veneto tutta quella regione che va dall’Adda all’Istria, e non la sola laguna veneta, quindi anche le città e il territorio dell’entroterra, che alla sua epoca, erano parte del regno longobardo.

La Repubblica di Venezia, rivendicava tale legittima eredità storica, rifacendosi ai confini della X regio, i quali ospitavano un unico popolo chiamato Veneto.

Se il venetico fu abbandonato tra il II e III secolo dopo Cristo, certo qualche cosa di quella antica lingua rimase nella parlata veneta neolatina che si formò, come probabilmente dimostra il nostro accento inconfondibile. Come il sardo, il friulano e tante altre lingue, prive di una regola grammaticale fissa, qui da noi si parlano varianti locali, ma indubbiamente un triestino può farsi capire benissimo da un padovano e viceversa. Quanto alla Repubblica veneta, la campagna prosperava, dava di che vivere dignitosamente al contadino, le città erano piene di operai addetti al tessile e a persone impiegate nei vari commerci. Inoltre ogni categoria del mondo del lavoro veneto aveva i propri rappresentanti eletti democraticamente, che interloquivano con le massime autorità sapendo di essere ascoltati. Tanto che alla caduta della Repubblica, migliaia furono i popolani che imbracciarono le armi per restaurare l’ordine antico. Sapevano di perdere delle libertà sostanziali, in cambio di libertà formali che in realtà li rendevano schiavi.

Tale lotta si protrasse per due decenni,ed è praticamente ignorata dalla storiografia ufficiale: nel 1812, ad esempio, un prete capo partigiano, fu fucilato dai francesi alle porte di Vicenza. la tonaca aveva la bandiera di San Marco. Altro esempio di amore popolare per la Repubblica, tramontata ma non dimenticata: nel bellunese, per tutta la prima metà dell’800, si celebrarono messe in memoria della Repubblica di San Marco, come riporta il Doglioni, storico locale.

Giustizia Veneta

(Venetian Justice)

Friday, 24th of September 2004 in Venice, in front of a crowded audience, has been introduced the book entitled "Giustizia Veneta. Lo spirito veneto nelle leggi criminali della Repubblica" [Venetian Justice. The Venetian spirit in the criminal Laws of Serenissima Republic] at the prestigious Aula Magna of Ateneo Veneto, an important private institution of historical studies. The reporters were: the nobleman Paolo Renier, descendant of the penultimate Duke of Venice, the author of the book Edoardo Rubini, historian of the Law and the criminal lawyer Renzo Fogliata, who organised the trial against Napoleon Bonaparte in 2003 (in that occasion real judges condemned the French dictator for sacking Venice and plunging it into misery). The lecturers explained that ancient Venetian Laws guaranteed a rapid sentence, often mild for the condemned. The prisoners' treatment was human and oriented to recover them. Only the premeditated murder and few crimes were punished with death. There was such a developed juridical civility that a huge casuistry of crimes was foreseen.

The book bids worthy scientific discoveries. While official science states Venetian laws derived from Roman ones, Edoardo Rubini demonstrated the ancient customs were the heritage of the social structure of the ancient Veneti, foregoing Rome. Venice never acknowledged Roman Laws. Besides, it is shown that the political system of the "Maritime Venetia", after the Roman Empire's downfall, was created by Venetic people, and not by Goths, Byzantines, Longobards, Franks, like it's told today. Even in the centuries before 1000, Venice was independent from Byzantium, because in that time a direct democracy was in force. People took political decisions in a meeting called "Arengo" and during the trials people chose the judges and took part in some acts. Between XII and XIII centuries, the Republic assumed a new form, becoming a parliamentary democracy, the first in history and before England. In conclusion, "Giustizia Veneta" describes for the first time all punishments and all crimes since the Middle Ages until the eighteenth century, gathered in homogeneous classes.

(cf: brand new book on Venetic Justice (Giustizia Veneta)

Eminenza Reverendissima,

rivolgo a Lei alcune considerazioni su recenti fatti, nella speranza di leggere - tra gli interventi di qualche Autorità - un segnale di saggezza che ultimamente si fa desiderare nella conduzione della cosa pubblica. La torre dell'orologio è rimasta imbracata per più di cinque anni dentro inutili ponteggi, perché i lavori non sono mai cominciati, benché la ditta Plaget si fosse offerta di riparare gratis gli antichi meccanismi. Ora il Comune di Venezia ha trasformato questo cantiere in un singolare baraccone, denotante un provincialismo pacchiano, all'insegna dell'ideologia mondialista, ovunque imperante.

Le sarà certo giunta voce che nei lunghi anni in cui il cantiere dovrà operare, si assisterà ad una continua mutazione d'aspetto per quest'area, così delicata ed importante, della Città: la nostra cara, vecchia torre "dei Mori" sarà mascherata alternativamente da Big Ben, Torre Eiffel, grattacielo newyorkese, ecc.

A tanti questa mentalità cosmopolita sembra il massimo raggiungimento del pensiero umano, ma presso tanti ambienti culturali, anche cattolici, si sollevano sempre maggiori preoccupazioni per il senso di alienazione e smarrimento - nonché per lo svuotamento di valori profondi - che essa causa nelle comunità locali (non solo europee), specie quando inculcata senza riguardo alcuno per l'ambiente sociale che va ad investire.

Ad ogni modo, come già accaduto l'anno scorso con la statua di Napoleone, la discutibile operazione di allestimento è stata compiuta nottetempo tra la sera di venerdì 22 e la mattina di sabato 23 ottobre, incappando da subito nell'indignazione popolare.

Più di recente, va ricordata la scena poco onorevole cui abbiamo assistito con sguardo attonito il 25 aprile, festa di San Marco, quando il Comune ha fatto innalzare in Piazza il gonfalone cittadino a testa in giù.I tanto vituperati veneziani sopravissuti, bottegai, gondolieri, guide di piazza, ristoratori, stavolta persino il quotidiano Gazzettino (spesso poco incline alla critica), hanno trovato la forza per dire "no". L'impatto visivo è inquietante: la giallognola torre pendula di Pisa sembra dover crollare da un momento all'altro addosso alla basilica medievale. Da tutti i tre lati è stata riprodotta la medesima, ossessiva immagine, ma visto da vicino il catafalco palesa tutta la ributtante volgarità dell'opera di regime: si sono rimossi qualcosa come 200 metri quadrati di maxegni

settecenteschi, si è creato un nuovo parterre di cemento per piazzare un enorme manufatto, sorretto da colonne metalliche, che servirebbe… a far entrare i turisti, che verrebbero filmati mentre si lasciano andare al proprio estro momentaneo (un nuovo grande fratello?).

Su vistosi pannelli, una benemerita professoressa della "Scuola Superiore Normale di Pisa" sciorina una dotta dissertazione sulle meraviglie del manufatto toscano.

Perché queste continue violenze contro il nostro popolo, come se dovessimo patire le pene di un eterno 12 maggio 1797? Qualcuno pensa che il torto dei Veneti sia di non essere stati italianizzati a sufficienza.

Queste le dichiarazioni rilasciate alla stampa dal Sindaco Costa: "Adesso inauguriamo la stagione dei cantieri divertenti, un gioco che valeva la pena di giocare". Gli fa eco l'ideatore, il genio incompreso Oliviero Toscani, già noto per le dissacrazioni pubblicitarie pro Benetton: "Macché provocazione! Abbiamo trasformato un'impalcatura in un evento culturale. I Veneziani dovrebbero ringraziarci: quella di Pisa è la torre più famosa del

mondo!"

Una domanda: esiste ancora un'Autorità religiosa o civile capace di suggerire ai detentori di cariche amministrative un comportamento appena rispettoso del pubblico decoro?

RingraziandoLa per l'attenzione cortesemente concessa, sperando in Suo intervento risanatore, mi è gradito porgerLe i migliori saluti

Venezia, 24 ottobre 2004

Edoardo Rubini

Cari amici e conoscenti, se condividete l'importanza della denuncia di cui

sopra, fatela girare.

San Marco per sempre!

Edoardo

Brand new book on Venetic Justice

by Edoardo Rubini

Giustizia Veneta (Venetic Justice) is the title of the book written by Edoardo Rubini, which was recently published in Venice. It deals accurately with the penal law and, in part, also with the public law of the Republic of Venice. The author stresses the autochthon roots and the extraneousness of the Venetic law in front of the Roman law, a fact that until now never was correctly exposed. Concerning the origin, the author is basing the foundation of the development of the law in Venice on the ius gentium of the ancient Veneti, from which also the institutio Sclavenica of Carantania derived. The author presented his discoveries once before at the convention for Venetic studies held at the castle of Ptuj (Slovenia), in 2001. His contribution to the meeting bore the title "Social structure of ancient Veneti and customary law in medieval Venice".

The lecture was held at the 2nd World Conference of Slovenian scientists and researchers, Ptuj (Slovenia), September 21, 2001.

Social structure of ancient Veneti

and customary law in Medieval Venice

by Edoardo Rubini

The Social structure of the ancient Veneti

Analyzing of the structure of the ancient Veneti society makes it possible to obtain an insight of the evolutionary Venetian law achieved through many centuries, and to understand that many customary rules were characterized during medieval times as the survival of ancient legal models.

Polish and Czech historical schools bring the Veneti ethnogenesis back to the humus of Lusazia Civilisation, developed between 1500 and 1100 BC in the homonymous region lying south of Berlin, between Eastern Germany, Cechia and Poland. This was the civilisation that spread over a large part of Europe, fostered not by military conquests but by bringing a new spiritual vision of life; as a matter of fact, in the beginning, the Veneti were known as the bearers of the urnfield culture (Urnenfelder Kultur), because they introduced the funeral ritual by burning the dead before burying their remains inside sacred vases. The Veneti settled - on the southern side - all through the whole alpine arc and the Po Valley, even in some German regions like Bavaria and Württemberg (at that time known as Vindelicia, meaning land of the Veneti, as Vienna was called Vindobona); in fact, we will see that certain legal models of those areas are similar to Venetian ones. For instance, it is interesting to discover that the Central European Venetic woman - unlike the Germanic one - possessed legal rights. So, the German juridical book of 1275 called der Sachsenspiegel (Saxon Mirror) enumerates the following juridical subjects: God, the King, the Duke, the Count, the Sachse (the Saxon man), the Wende (the Venetic man) and the Wendin (the Venetic woman).

During the late Bronze and the Iron Ages, in the area surrounding Padua, the evolving Este Culture was thriving, and it left its imprint on the lands between the Central-eastern Alps, the Adriatic sea, Romagna and the Adda river. The Romans themselves recognised a strong ethnic homogeneity among the neighbouring peoples like the Veneti, Cenomani, Rhaetians, Carni, Histri and some others, so that in this territorial subdivision the emperor Ottavianus Augustus officially defined Decima Regio "Venetia et Histria", because the vast area contained today's Veneto, Eastern Lombardy, South Tirol, Friuli Venezia Giulia, Istria and the surroundings of the Isonzo River called «Primorska» (Slovenian «Coastal»). Also in Italy some outstanding historical and linguistic researchers - among them Devoto, Battaglia, Sergi - followed this leading thesis, nevertheless, a large part of the scientific literature is restricted to a historical vision conditioned by the myth of Rome, not being aware of the importance, that the ancient Veneti assumed in the archaeological research on a European level. Recent searches are leading to important results; some observations made by Jožko Šavli can fit into a different perspective the medieval customs documented in Venice, unveiling the extraordinary continuity of past Venetian society.

The peoples, who originated from the Veneti, and also spoke Indo-European languages like others, distinguished themselves in a decisive way from their prehistoric matrix. With regard to this, the language they used is attested to in about four hundred inscriptions referring to the Este culture. Well-known researchers at Italian universities state that it is similar to Latin, but they have not succeeded in deciphering these writings in a convincing way; on the contrary, the philologist Matej Bor has worked out numerous translations using his own knowledge of certain ancient languages, particularly those belonging to the Slavic-western type, in his opinion referable to a common Venetic matrix. Besides, the Venetic is viewed as the language that mostly preserved the features of the common Indo-European.

A great historical change took place about two thousand years before Christ, involving different aspects than linguistic ones: the Indo-European colonisation didn't bring new linguistic forms, but changed culture, religion and social relationships so that the matriarchy - typical of the prehistoric, rural society - decayed, and a patriarchal society - typical of the nomadic and warlike peoples - took the upper hand. The ancient Veneti distinguished themselves for their conservative character, tying them to a harmonious and pacific vision of life, typical of the matriarchy; among them, cultural tradition and faith kept on prevailing on the new values of possession and conquest. In religion, the figure of the woman, therefore, maintained primary importance coinciding with the survival of the Mother Earth cult. This social organisation for an immemorial time was based on village community, with separate fields belonging to single families, while the system of Celtic and Germanic peoples was formed by the communities of relatives (in German: Sippe). In southern Europe, instead, the great family or clan was prevalent; the great family - called «productive» - was also typical for Latins and Greeks ( known as ergasterion); it was founded on the absolute authority of the master (patria potestas).

With a modern language we may define Veneti society as more equitable and democratic, since on the individual plan it gave a greater relief to every single person, and on the collective plan it based social relationships on mutual consent rather than on hierarchies, as it is demonstrated on popular meetings and by the almost equal relationships in the law of family and succession. The Venetic family, in fact, was founded on the authority of both parents, the mother and the father; the stock's descent could continue, the whole inheritance legacy could be passed on in both, the male and the female line. Nevertheless, archaeological finds show clear forms of division in classes. The Venetic woman had, however, rights essentially equal to those of a man, and her meaningful position is only explainable by the survival of the Pre-Indoeuropean matriarchal culture.

The medieval customs

For a long time - since the Middle Ages' dawn till the advent of the codification processes accompanying the creation of different legal orders by every State during the 19th Century - almost all the western world held up on a fundamental juridical system: the statutory law was integrated to a great extent by the Ius Commune, wich was founded on Roman and canon laws. The Statutes were composed of a set of rules of various kinds, locally produced and therefore in force inside single lands or towns. «Venetian law» usually indicates the order of Serenissima Republic of Venice: it was also formed as a statutory law, but it boasted the prerogative to exclude Roman law as integrative source, prescribing principles to integrate its gaps and producing new dispositions when it was necessary.

So, a production of juridical rules took place at two levels: on one side the written legislation - official in Venice - contained in a continuous series of Statutes that followed since the 12th Century (and it settled in the Statutum Novum issued in 1242 by Doge Iacopo Tiepolo), on the other one, the rules produced by judges in their decisions (so-called «giurisprudenza») that drew from jurists' knowledge and from the forensic uses designed to satisfy the demands of judicial practice. Usually this existed as oral tradition, that is, as a custom. Therefore the custom took an essential role in the growing national law of Venice, because it rose from decisions related to social, economic and political relationships of every-day life; the custom had the merit not to die down with the period in which it originated but, thanks to its longevity, it formed the base of the succeeding statutory legislation.

Today it is possible to know better the juridical evolution, featuring always in an original sense the regulations in force among Veneti through the different epochs; as yet it has been thought that Venetian medieval law was derived from the Roman, but this concept cannot explain the many differences between these laws: they have been deemed simple details, but they are the heritage of juridical uses dating to remote times. So, a fundamental aspect comes to light: various legal models that belonged to the ancient Veneti survived during the Roman age and were perpetuated to the time of the Veneta Serenissima Repubblica. The originality of the Venetian law, in this sense, must be explained by the fact, that the Venetians observed in every time their own rules, also accepting, as always happens, some influences that foreign juridical cultures practised in different periods.

The point of departure of such analysis may be constituted by certain juridical sources studied by Benvenuto Pitzorno and Lujo Margetic: Iudicia a probis iudicibus promulgata is a document offering an interesting cross-section of legal rules in the high Middle Ages, for this ancient code is contained in a manuscript retained at Marciana Library, following another important document, Ratio de lege romana. It consists in a thirteenth-century transcript of sentences of earlier epoch rehandled with new grafts acknowledging a more recent right: their first editing is probably prior to 1170, so the rules established inside it may date back in wide part to the 11th and 12th century. In brief, Iudicia are a series of juridical rules contained in 75 «capitoli» (articles) on matters concerning private and procedural law arisen from the practical application of the Statutes. These sentences were issued in part by the probi iudices, in part by a consilium of sapientes, who were consulted by judges; however, the manuscript's author was neither a iudex, neither a sapiens, but an experienced man of legal practice (perhaps a causidicus or an advocatus); in fact he added to these sentences and opinions a third category of rules «ad uso del foro», constantly observed in the judicial procedure, also unwritten.

The most ancient conceptions are situated in iudicium #51 prohibiting the sons' disinheritance, in accordance with other legal systems of the high Middle Ages: the patrimony belongs to the family collectivity, usually to the narrow nucleus formed by father, mother, sons and daughters not married. According to the iudicium #2, if the father made a will, he had to leave his son at least a part of his goods, considering various circumstances, among which the working contribution of every member of the family. Only with the 1242 Tiepolo Statute, the principles of the Roman law prevailed on matter of the successions: the father disposed freely mortis causa of his patrimony, but he had to leave his son at least the third part of the immovable properties that would be due to him. The importance of the patrimonial division between father and son in Venetian families' life is owed to the strong presence of the idea of the family patrimony in Venetian law up to the end of the 12th century, since with the division the son went out of the family community.

With regard to the patrimonial relationships between husband and wife, the Venetian and Roman systems conferring the dowry appear clearly separate. In the Venetian law the daughter, after getting married, declared in writing to have received the dowry and after the breakup of the marriage (ensuing to her husband's death), a complex procedure to establish the dowry's amount was executed.

Roman dos was stipulated with the future bridegroom, while Venetian repromissa with the future bride; in the Roman law it was often the woman providing the dowry, while in the Venetian law this never happened. In Roman law, up to the times of Giustinianus, the dowry was - at least legally - her husband's ownership, but in the Venetian law the owner of the repromissa was the wife: during all centuries in which the Venetian Republic lasted, the patrimonial separation was in force, so the husband could only administer his wife's goods. This conception hindered Venetians in granting to the woman some right on the good that her husband acquired during the marriage and this system was different from Longobards' one (the Morgengabe) and from the medietas in the territory of Romagna.

There were some other particular legal forms: one called grosina, or «pellicia vidualis» that was the widow's right to receive from the inheritance of her husband also a 10% increase, over the dowry. This right of remote origin perhaps dated back to the ancient Veneti, when the widow who didn't want to make the widowhood's vow left her husband's home and received a symbolic token of respect for her (in origin a fur) to show everyone that her departure happened by free and honorable choice (for converges, an ancient use imposed to throw the adulteress out of house). During the Middle Ages this gift was given in coin, none the less being of modest entity.

The Venetian law knew another institute that had the purpose of increasing the woman's substance, the gift of Monday (donum diei lunae). The Venetian marriages were celebrated on Sundays, therefore this name meant that the gift was offered after the first night of wedding as a tribute to the bride's virginity; such action may have been born as a devotional act to the Mother Earth (that is to femininity), because in protohistoric Ages the main divinity in Venetiae was Reitia, who presided over birth and death. She was projected in a series of symbols, among them the moon. On the contrary, there is no trace in any Venetian document of the donatio propter nuptias typical of Roman law.

The peculiarity of Venetian legal models extended to other fields, above all to procedure, trade and contractual law.

The popular meetings

Another primary matter to inquire upon, as yet ignored by researchers, is the one concerning the political organization of the peoples origining from the ancient Veneti. Inexplicable similarities - if we leave a deep common tradition out of consideration - tie territories such as Carinthia, Slovenia, Veneto, Istria. During the Middle Ages in these areas it is sure that popular meetings were active as constitutional structures for political deliberation, endowed with an inner articulation and connected with other governmental bodies. If we consider the famous rite of the installation of the Dukes of Carantania, held in the Slovenian language near Krnski grad/Karnburg in Carinthia, we find a public authority conception and a style to deliberate very similar to the election of the first Venetian Dogi (Dukes).

Rather than as a sovereign, in fact, this figure of duke was chosen as a State leader, titular of sovereignity as popular representative. The fidelity oath that had to be taken was a public act with which the authority became dependent upon legality and people's rights. Therefore political power did not correspond to a subjective conception, but it expressed an objective and collective dimension, typical of a real State, besides deriving from a popular election. In Venice the laws were deliberated with the system of the promissione, too: the governmental bodies - and in other cases the same popular meeting - used to swear publicly the respect of a certain regulations while they approved them, so teachers of law history sometimes refer to «diritto pattizio» (conception of the law founded on pacts), similar to Germanic pactas and in opposition with the authoritarian conceptions of Roman law.

But the similarity embraces also the smallest details. In all the territories above described there were governmental bodies counting twelve members: dvanajstija was the ancient tribunal typical of Slovenia (at that time it was in force near the Slovenian communities of Antro and Merso in Friuli, too ), just like the Venetian Consesso tribunizio mentioned by Vettor Sandi. He claimed that in the centuries following the Roman empire's collapse a federation of twelve lagoon islands was formed, whose inhabitants were part of a large Arengo (lat. concio or placitum) to assume the great common decisions, but the government was entrusted to a council of tribunes elected by each island . Only at the end of the 7th century it was decided to elect one leader only, that is the Doge; the Arengo was deprived of the power to elect the Doge in the 12th century (when such capacity was attributed to Maggior Consiglio) and abolished entirely in 1400.

Furthermore, in all these territories public meetings were held near a tree of a particular kind: the linden. So many Slovenian and Istrian little towns still maintain a sample of linden at the centre of a square or next to the church. Still today a village in Friuli brings the Slovenian name Lipa, but it was also present in the Venetian areas: for instance, Pieve di Cadore had it on its former escutcheon.

Conclusions

The strong connotation in a national sense of Venetian family law leads to - going back in time - a link with the historical research done at the European level since the 19th century, wich, as we saw, demonstrates a marked role of the woman in social structure. The extraordinary archaeological finds emerged in the whole Triveneto, show the existence of a rich and spreading civilization, at the same time firmly tied up with the cultural expressions of Central Europe. A new direction of study considering so many analogies among the lands included between Po and Danubian valleys and the Baltic sea would surely give unexpected results. We hope to have offered a new key to read the origin of the models of Venetian law and their continuity through the passing time.

References

	•	Battaglia R., Dal paleolitico alla civiltà atestina, in Centro Internazionale delle Arti e del Costume, Storia di Venezia, I, Venezia, 1957, pp. 77 - 177.

	•	Besta E., Il Diritto e le leggi civili di Venezia fino al Dogado di Enrico Dandolo, in Atti dell'Ateneo Veneto, II, Venezia, 1897 pp. 290-320.

	•	Cessi R., Da Roma a Bisanzio, in Centro Internazionale delle Arti e del Costume, Storia di Venezia, I, Venezia, 1957, pp. 179 - 401.

	•	Clavora F.-Mattelig R., Slavia, Udine, 1997.

	•	Devoto G., Origini indoeuropee, Firenze, 1962.

	•	Fogolari G.- Prosdocimi A.L., I Veneti antichi. Lingua e cultura, Padova, 1988.

	•	Kretschmayr H., Geschichte von Venedig. Erster Band, (bis zum Tode Enrico Dandolos), Gotha, 1905.

	•	Margetic L., Il diritto, in Storia di Venezia dalle origini alla caduta della Serenissima, I, Roma, 1992, pp. 677 - 692.

	•	Maranini G., La Costituzione di Venezia, I-II, Firenze, 1974.

	•	Musatti E., Storia della Promissione Ducale, Padova, 1888.

	•	Pellegrini G.B., Dal venetico al veneto. Studi linguistici preromani e romanzi, Padova, 1991.

	•	Pellegrini G.B. - Prosdocimi A.L., La lingua venetica, I. Le iscrizioni; II. Studi, Padova, 1967.

	•	Pitzorno B., Le consuetudini giudiziarie veneziane anteriori al 1229, in Miscellanea di storia veneta, edita per cura della R. Deputazione di storia patria, s. III, t. II, Venezia, 1910, pp. 293 - 347.

	•	Sandi V., Principj di Storia Civile della Repubblica di Venezia dalla sua fondazione sino all'anno di N. S. 1700. Della parte prima che contiene i tempi sin al 1300. Volume primo sino al 1000, Venezia, 1755.

	•	Šavli J. - Bor M. - Tomažic I., I Veneti, progenitori dell'uomo europeo, Vienna, 1991.

	•	Šavli J., Slovenija, podoba evropskega naroda, Nova Gorica, 1994.

	•	Sergi G., Arii e Italici, Torino, 1898.

	•	Sergi G., Le prime e le più antiche civiltà, Torino, 1926.

	•	Volumen Statutorum Legum, ac Iurium tam civilium, quam criminalium DD. Venetorum, Cum Correctionibus Serenissimorum Principum prò tempore. Et practica summaria, amplissimo Indice omnium Rubricarum: & Annotationibus, & Postilis in margine omnium Legum, Summa cura, & studio D. Rizzardi Griffi Causidici Veneti ab innumeris erroribus emendatis. Additis in hac nouissima Editione nonnulis Legibus, recentioribus summa diligentia, & labore D. Petri Pinelli Aduocati Veneti. Ioanni Cornelio Venetiarum Principi dicatum. Venetiis, 1709.

	•	Zordan G., L'Ordinamento giuridico veneziano. Lezioni di storia del diritto veneziano con nota bibliografica, Padova, 1980.

Jože Škulj

PISMO J. ŠKULJA Petru Štihu. Seveda pismo ni bilo objavljeno, kaj šele da bi Štih nanj odgovoril.

Spoštovani prof. dr. Štih:

Z veseljem sem prebral Vaš zanimiv intervju v Mladini 12. 12. 2005, kjer zagovarjate Vaše vtise, mnenja in stališca o knejem kamnu, Karantaniji in slovenski zgodovini.

Za slovensko zgodovino se zanimam, toda pri tem sem samouk, ker sem koncal samo 1. razred osnovne šole v Sloveniji in nisem imel prilike, da bi kdaj formalno študiral slovensko zgodovino.

Sedaj ko imam vec casa, hocem odgovoriti na vprašanja mojih otrok in vnukov o mojih in seveda njihovih slovenskih koreninah, zavedajoc se njihovih vprašanj, ki se sucejo okrog DNK, genetskih markerjev in pred-zgodovine. Ker imajo severno-ameriško univerzitetno izobrazbo so kriticni pri sprejemanju zakljuckov in se ne zadovoljijo samo z 'ex cathedra' izjavami strokovnjakov, ce te izjave niso podprte s podatki, ki jih lahko sami preverijo z branjem razprav na 'internet-u'.

Ko berem Vaš pogovor s casnikarjem Mladine, sem po eni strani vesel, da hocete biti strokovno in znanstveno korekten, po drugi strani pa razocaran, iz znanstvenega vidika, ker zagovarjate tako ne-znanstveno stališce do primarnih virov in dokazov :... ''Za to, da so Slovani v omenjenem casu zaceli prihajati v današnji slovenski prostor, ne potrebujemo nikakršnih natancnih opisov njihove priselitve.....'' To je nevzdrno, ker to gre za zgodovinsko dobo sredi Evrope in kot pravite ''da je bil ta prostor...pol tisocletja del rimskega imperita - in to ne nekje na njegovem obrobju, ampak tako rekoc v njegovem središcu....''. Prav zato bi pricakoval primarne opise in dokaze.

Ker pravite, da primarnih dokazov ni, bi bil jaz zadovoljen s sekundarnimi dokazi, to je viri: ''...na podlagi katerih to naselitev lahko dobro utemeljimo in s tem tudi razloimo vse velike strukturne spremembe...v jeziku, ekonomiji, religiji, socialni in dravni ureditvi, kulturi, itd......'' Upam, da imate vire in dokaze, ki so bistveni za slovenski prostor in niso splošni pojavi za cel rimski imperij.

Imam zgodovinske knjige kot so Zgodovina Slovencev - Cankarjeva zaloba, Ljubljana, 1979; Slovenska zgodovina do Razsvetljenstva - Peter Štih & Vasko Simoniti, Korotan, Ljubljana, 1996 in druge. Toda te knjige mi ne dajejo odgovora na moje bistveno vprašanje: Zakaj obstoja genetska sorodnost in genetska nepretrganost med 2500 let starimi okostnjaki iz mesta Adria v rimski provinci Venetia et Histria in s sedanjimi prebivalci Slovenije? Tukaj gre za primarne dokaze.

Gotovo Vas študentje vsako leto na novo sprašujejo o pred-zgodovini Slovencev, zato bi pricakoval, da imate pripravljen, morda tudi objavljen, povzetek vseh teh sekundarnih virov, ki prepricljivo dokazujejo naseljevanje Slovanov v 6. stoletju. Rad bi imel te dokaze v moji knjinici. Kje jih lahko dobim in kako jih narocim?.

Lep pozdrav, J. Škulj P. Eng. (Canada), 15. decembra 2005

May 4, 2005

Zgodovinarji so zaskrbljeni

Cenjeni prof. dr. Repe,

prijatelj mi je poslal clanek, ki ga je objavil Dnevnik 19. aprila 2005, z naslovom Zgodovinarji so zaskrbljeni. Ta clanek ste podpisali Vi in še 15 drugih zgodovinarjev, ker vas skrbijo razmere med zgodovinarji in slovensko javnostjo. Med drugim ste zaskrbljeni, ker da se znova krepi kult Karantanije in pristajanje na venetsko teorijo, ki jo zagovarjajo slovenski avtohtonisti, za katero mislite, da je to neznanstveno soocanje s preteklostjo in oddaljevanje od sodobne miselnosti v Evropi in svetu. - Svetovno znani profesor lord Colin Renfrew arheolog, zgodovinar in ravnatelj The McDonald Institute for Archaeological Research v Cambridge, v Angliji, je ze leta 1973 v svoji knjigi Before Civilization: The Radiocarbon Revolution and Prehistoric Europe zapisal:

»The study of prehistory today is in a state of crisis. Archaeologists all over the world have realized that much of prehistory, as written in existing textbooks, is inadequate, some of it is quite simply wrong. The chronology of prehistoric Europe betrays a serious flaw in archaeological theory.....Most of us have been brought up to believe, for instance, that the Pyramids of Egypt are the oldest-stone built monuments in the world, and that the first temples built by man were situated in the Near East. There, it was thought metallurgy was invented. It comes, then, as a shock to learn that all this is wrong. The megalithic chamber tombs of western Europe are now dated earlier than the Pyramids....Copper metallurgy appears to have been underway in the Balkans at an early date-earlier than in Greece...Today the second radiocarbon revolution.....is bringing down the whole edifice of links and connections that were so laboriously built up by scholars,....to date and make intelligible our prehistoric past.« pp.15-17

Znanstveniki so se morali že dostikrat, ceprav vcasih zelo težko, spoprijeti s stvarnostjo in spremeniti ali celo zavreci zastarele teorije, ker niso bile v skladu z bolj novimi dejstvi, ki jih odkriva sodobna znanost. Sodobna miselnost v svetu je precej drugacna, kot si jo predstavljajo nekateri slovenski zgodovinarji, ki se naslanjajo na teorije ki so nastajale v dobi, ko je obstojala miselnost, tudi v znanosti, da je vesolje staro 6000 let. Najbolj viden prelom se je zacel pred 50. leti s C-14 datiranjem in se nadaljuje z izsledki genetskih in jezikoslovnih raziskav.

Svetovno znani genetiki, kot so dr. Martin Richards (Univ. of Oxford), dr. Hans-Jürgen Bandelt (Univ. Hamburg), dr. Bryan Sykes (Univ. of Oxford), dr. Toomas Kivisild (Tartu Univ.), dr. Richard Villems (Tartu Univ.), dr. Antonio Torroni (Univ. di Pavia), dr. Ariella Oppenheim (Hebrew Univ. Jerusalem), dr. Dan Bradley (Trinity College Dublin) in še drugi iz univerz in inštitutov v Italiji, Nemciji, Rusiji, Angliji, Irski, Romuniji, Ceški, Grciji, Estoniji, Ameriki, Izraelu in Iraku, so zavrgli preseljevanje narodov v zgodovinski dobi; ugotovili so, da so selitve ljudstev mnogo starejše. V prostor okrog Alp je prišlo po priseljencih samo 7% novih genetskih vrst od bronaste dobe pa do danes; vecino genetskih vrst so priseljenci prinesli že pred mlajšo kameno dobo. Cetrtina teh vrst je bila okrog Alp že pred ledeno dobo. Po ledeni dobi pa se je zacela selitev iz ledenodobnih zatocišc, ki so bila na Pirenejskem polotoku, ob Jadranu, severnem Balkanu in ozemlju do Ukrajine, proti severu Evrope, ko so dopušcale vremenske razmere.

Že vec let zasledujem genetske raziskave v evropskih in ameriških revijah in do sedaj še nisem našel, da bi kateri genetik uporabil in citiral kaksnega poklicnega slovenskega zgodovinarja. Do sedaj so citirani samo Šavli J., Bor M., Tomazic I., trans. Skerbinc A. (1996) VENETI: First Builders of European Community. Slovenski zgodovinarji morate pohiteti, ter iti na delo, da se ne oddaljite prevec od sodobne znanosti. Treba se bo soociti s stvarnostjo in zaceti pisati pred-zgodovino na novo, ce hocete da vas bo kdo uposteval izven Slovenije.

Lep pozdrav,

J. Škulj P.Eng. (The Hindu Institute of Learning, Toronto, Canada)

May 13, 2004

SLOVENIAN ROOTS; WHAT GENES REVEAL

(Korenine Slovencev: Kaj Razodevajo Geni)

(Jože Škulj (P.Eng.) The Hindu Institute of Learning, 2004-3-30)

(Translation from Slovenian by Lillian Centa -- 8/04)

Summary:

In the year 2003, Malyarchuk et. al. in collaboration with Slovenian Dr. K. Drobnic (M), and thus it was made possible, that Slovenians can compare themselves genetically with other nations through genetic groups (haplogroups) inherited through the mother - mtDNA - as we have done from the year 2000 - with genetic groups from Y chromosome inherited from the father (SS). From literature, I summarized data that indicated nationalities that would be of interest to Slovenians. From the comparison, it is evident that 90% of Slovenians have the mtDNA genetic groups that originated before or during the last ice age, whereas, 4,000 to 5,000 year old skeletons, excavated in the Basque country, only 75% of them have genetic groups that old. The Basques of today have 70%. Only 1% of the Slovenians have genetic groups 6,000 to 13,000 years old;. all other genetic groups are much older.

Archaeological finds:

Archaeologists maintain that man has lived in Europe for at least 800,000 years. This early man was given the name Neanderthal, after a Neanderthal gorge near Dusseldorf in Germany where his bones were discovered. Even older bones, resembling man, believing to be 1,75 million years old, were discovered by archaeologists in Dmanisi in today's Republic of Georgia (G). The oldest remnants of tools were found by archaeologists in 1995 in Spain. They estimate that these tools are about 789,000 years old.

For archaeologists, Slovenia is also an interesting place. The oldest traces of man, found up until now were above the river Idrijca in Divjih babah ("wild women") in 1996 when a whistle made of bone was found, dating from the period prior to 45,000 years ago, which they ascribed to the Neanderthal man (TM0. As an engineer, the elaborate whistle surprised me because of the workmanship, which has shows evidence that drilling technique was used in its manufacture. Of the four holes, two are not damaged and show signs of being made by a drill, since they are very symmetrical. It is possible that even then, they used the same drilling techniques that were used by the Eskimos, even after the arrival of Europeans, who used a bow and stone-tipped arrows for drilling. On the developing technological evidence, also the oldest, more than 5,000 years old, wooden wheel with an axle was found in the swamplands of Ljubljana. That they were able to make this wheel and transverse axle, they had to use axes and probably also saws. It is interesting that the wheel did not turn on the axle, but the axle with the wheel turned on bearings, similar to a system used, even today, on modern railway cars. We are able to take the wheel with bearings as evidence of relatively highly developed woodworking technology and also as a sign of metallurgy, since a mold for copper axes was found not far from the site of the pre-historic wheel.

Recently, in Croatian Zagorje, at Vindija and Velika Pecina, bone and stone tools were found. It is believed that they belonged to a Neanderthal man who may have lived before 29,000 years. Nearby, tools of stone and bone were also found, characteristic of modern man. It may be that the Neanderthal man made the tools himself or acquired them through trade. It was previously believed that the Neanderthal man became extinct prior to 34,000 years ago. This new evidence compelled scientists to change their theories. Fred Smith, anthropologist from Northern Illinois University, says that it is possible that the Neanderthal man and modern man lived together in central Europe for many thousands of years. Erik Trinkhaus, anthropologist from Washington State University, thinks that modern man somewhere superseded the Neanderthals, elsewhere, he intrmarried with them. Between these two races, Trinkhaus sees very small distinctions. In 1999, he announced that he found, in Portugal, 24,500-year-old child's bones, which showed characteristics similar to those of the Neanderthal man and of modern man. Trinkhaus and Smith thus raised new controversial affirmation that the Neanderthal man and the modern man mingled. (NP)

Genetic data:

Geneticists, for example Ridley and others, are extremely interested in human genes. They have discovered, that from the time prior to four billion years ago up to the period of some thousand years ago, the human genome has been recording significant events in our biography. There are genes with the help of which it is possible to track, man's migration during the last thousands of years. (RM). Gutierrez and others ascertained the possibility that the Neanderthal is also represented in the genetic structure of Europeans. Gutierrez proved that genetically some Africans are more distinguishable from Europeans, than the specimens of three Neanderthals whom they compared with the help of genetic technology. (G) Calafell noticed that in today's populations, there are more genetic distinctions, where their ancestors had possible contact with Neanderthals of prehistoric times. (C) Thus some geneticists agree with anthropologists.

In the year 2003 there was a new milestone for Slovenian historical research when Russian geneticist, Dr. Boris A. Malyarchuk published his paper, "Mitochondrial DNA Variability in Bosnians and Slovenians", which shows the genetic profile of Slovenians based on genetic groups inherited only on the mother's side. Thus we now have the possibility of comparing genetically with other nations, not only on the basic genetic groups having the Y chromosome inherited from the father, but also on the basic ancestral groups inherited on the mother's side. This will have far-reaching consequences for writing of Slovenian prehistory, because there are many outdated theories which repudiate proof that Slovenians are an ancient people, living in their own land continuously for thousands of years.

In the tabulated list, I took data from literature about mtDNA genetic groups of other nations and their ages, and compared them with Slovenians. In this comparison are included, besides the contemporary people, also genetic groups of people who, 4,000 to 5,000 years ago, lived in the region where the Basques now live. (BSK1)

If we statistically analyze data from the tabulated list, we see that the average genetic age in Europe is 26,710 years. With Slovenians, the average calculated age mtDNA of genetic groups is about 300 years older - 27,036years.

B B V S P R S E I

S S E L O U W U N

K K N O L S E Avg. D

	2

	(I) (MM) (MP) (M) (M) (M) (T1) ® (K)

	(T1-3)

GS®AGE (years) % % % % % % % % %

H 19 200-21 400 37 50-T3 41 47 45 42 41 46 1.8

HV* 20 700-22 800 na na <2 0 1 2 na na na

pre*V 10 300-15 100 na 0-T2 <2 3 5 5 na na na

preHV15 000-42 000 na 0 na 0 0 <1 na <1 na

V 11 000-17 000 0 12-T2 4 4 na na 5 5 0

J 22 000-27 000 12 2 10 10 8 8 3 9 0.5

T* 33 000-40 000 ~8 2 10 10 8 8 3 9 0.5

T1+ 6 000-13 000 na 2 3 1 2 2 na 2 na

K 13 000-18 000 20 3 4 4 3 3 14 6 0.2

U 17 (15) (6) (20) (15) (16) 16 (16) (13)

U1 2 400-52 000 na na 3 0 0 1 na <1 0.2

U2 23 000-48 000 na 1 0 1 1 1 na <1 5.9

U3 11 900-26 800 na 0 <2 2 <1 1 na 1 0

U4 16 100-24 700 na 0 0 6 5 3 na 3 0.4

U5 45 100-52 800 na 12 <2 11 9 10 na 9 0.1

U6 NA na 1 0 0 0 0 na na 0

U7 11 900-45 400 na 1 0 0 <1 0 na <1 1.0

I 27 200-40 500 0 0 3 2 2 2 0 2 0.7

W 17 100-28 400 0 1 0 5 4 2 0 2 2.2

X 17 000-30 000 ~1 1 <5 1 2 3 0 <2 0.2

DR 5 na <2 0 3 2 na <1 79.5

The columns do not add up to 100% because the data is from more sources and the column figures are also rounded off to whole numbers.

Abbreviations:

GS (genetske skupine) are genetic groups: DR are other genetic groups; (20) means that this is a collective number in the column; BSK1 is mtDNA from teeth and skeletons - 4,000 to 5,000 years from the Basque country; BSK2 is mtDNA of present-day Basques; VEN are Italians from the province of Veneto; SLO are Slovenians; POL are Polish; RUS are Russians; SWE are Swedes; EU avg. is the European average; IND are Indians.

Genetic comparison:

Geneticists have, with help of mtDNA, an insight into prehistory across the ice age to the first settlements in Europe before 50,000 years. From the tabulated list it is evident that 90% of Slovenians carry the mtDNA genetic groups, inherited from the mother, averaging 20,000 years old or more. These genetic groups originated before the ice age. Carriers of these genetic groups survived the ice age and later spread out. If we compare Slovenes with the Basques from before 4,000 to 5,000 years, we see that they had only 75% of genetic groups, which originated prior to more than 20,000 years. This means that Slovenians not only speak an archaic language (SS) but also are genetically very old.

Genetic groups H, I, J, K, T, U, V, W and X have higher percentages than all Europeans. Geneticists believe that they originated after the time that Caucasians separated themselves from Africans, since they are mostly found in Europeans. Also, in India, even the percentage is considerably smaller than in Europe, people have these genetic groups, except for V (K). Thus, in India, there are more than 200,000,000 people who have the European genetic group. Also, in Africa, and even in North America, a kind of specimen of these genetic groups is found in the original inhabitants. (T1) Here there are challenges for archaeologists, linguists, and historians that they will find answers to how and when the carriers of these genetic groups arrived there.

Torroni defends the thesis that groups H and preV originated before the ice age in Europe and later spread out from the east toward the west. (T2) Malyarchuk then took genetic group H and classified it into subgroups (haplotypes) for a more precise comparison of people. Thus he ascertains that H subgroup 16189-16356, present in all European inhabitants, whom he analyzed, was not present in Slovenians. On another side, Slovenians have a high 5% H subgroup 16162 that is found in central and Eastern Europe. However, in Bosnians it is not present. In people from Veneto it is present at 6%. Rare H subgroup 16263 is present only in Slovenian, German and French speaking inhabitants. H subgroup 16223 is present in Slovenians, in southern Germans, and in Ukranians. (M)

Groups J and T may have originated in the Middle East and later brought to Europe. Thus, 25% of Bedouins in Arabia have the genetic group J. ® If we compare the 5,000- year-old Basques, we see that the percentage in these Basques is near Venetians, Slovenians, and other Slavs. Is it possible that the Romans brought this genetic group into Eastern Europe? Inhabitants from the Italian province of Veneto have an extraordinarily high percentage of the T genetic group - 22% -- while Slovenians have only 6%. However, Swedes also have 22% to make an inference that here we have the arrival of people from the Mideast even before the Roman era, since the Romans stopped in central Europe and not in Scandinavia. The Tuscans, who now live in the territory of historic Etruscans, have 10%, which is close to the Slav average. Malyarchuk ascertains that the sequence 16069-16126 of genetic group J, has 8% Slovenians. This would be a sign of migratory people from the Near East in the Stone Age. (M)

Group U, which is very frequent in Europe and India, is also found in Africans south of Sahara, which, geneticists ascertain, is 51,000 to 67,000 years old. (T) This genetic group U is very frequently found in Slovenians with 20%. The European average is 16%. It can be concluded that the U group has been present in the Balkans for 44,000 years since it is the only one as old as archaeological finds which, in Europe, area the oldest in the Balkans and in the central river basin of the Danube, 44,000 years old. (R1)

Malyarchuk ascertains that the U5 subgroup 16114A has a great number of Slovenians - almost 4%. Until now, such a high percentage was found only in the Finns. In Bosnians, he did not detect this subgroup. As he compared the genetics of Bosnians and Slovenians, he noticed the differences, and ponders that maybe here are two different Slavic migrations. (M)

This assumption is in agreement with the analysis of genetic groups in the Y chromosome, which is inherited on the father's side. Semino et al., are of the opinion that the Y chromosome group Eu7, which is presently very frequent in Croatians and Serbs, originated in the territory of Epi-Gravettian culture in the territory of the present-day Austria, Czech Republic and northern Balkans before 20,000 to 25,000 years in the descendants who cam from the Near East. Another genetic group, EU 19, which is the most frequent in Slavs, then in northern India, and in Pakistan, may have originated in the ice age refuge in the Ukraine and spread out after the ice age. (SO), (RZ), (Y)

Certainly, in 50,000 years, there were more military comings and goings of people. Yet, this has occurred many times in the last 200 years; French in Morocco under Napoleon and then Russians in Paris under the czars; Germans near Moscow under Hitler and then Russians in central Europe under Stalin. And, if we consider human nature, such as it is, surely there were some genetic exchanges, thus, the majority of people wanted "stati inu obstati".

Group I was very frequent in 4,000 to 5,000 year old Basque skeletons with 20%. This group is now present in Swedes with 16%; in Slovenians with 4%. This genetic group also carries 5,300-year-old mummy Oetzi - a man from a glacier. Thus, Slovenians or Slavs cannot be excluded when we seek where Oetzi belongs. Perhaps, with time, we will also get Y chromosome data, which will more exactly show in which present-day language group he will fall.

In North Africa, in Morocco, on the south side of the Atlas Mountains, is the town of Zagora; nearby the river Draa runs with the rain. There living Berbers have more than 25% of genetic groups V, H, U, and X, which show European origin. (RA) Genetic type 16298, which falls under genetic group V, is present in Berbers in Morocco. (RA) Type 16198 is also present in Slovenians. (M) Types 16343 and 16390 are present in Morocco; (DA) type 16390 is also present in Slovenia. (M) The question is how did these genetic types come into Africa? Torroni assumes that European genetic influx may be from the Neolithic age, or influenced by the Vandals, Portuguese, and Spaniards. (RA), (T) Here, surely, the Vandals come into consideration, who, in the years 428-429, through Kr., under the leadership of Genserik, invaded northern Africa. Although some defend the view that the Vandals were German (Teuton), it is unlikely that Germans (Teutons) would give Slavic names to those of a region of Africa. Canadian anthropologist, Satiroff, with the help of linguistics and old historical sources, finds Slavic origins in Vandals. (SG) Also, a Russian historian and linguist, Tulajev, cites historical sources which show that Vandals were Slavs. (TP) Now genetics also show that predecessors would easily be Berber Slavs.

Genetic types 16189, 16192, 16270, 16230, belonging to European genetic group U5, are found here and there in inhabitants south of the Sahara. Senegal type 16145, 16222, and 16311, belong to genetic group H. (RA) Type 16311 is more frequent in Bosnians than in Slovenians. (M)

Indians of North America have of the principal genetic groups, groups A, B, C, D; only the Ojibwa Indians also have group X (T) which is very frequently found in the inhabitants of the Veneto province and is present also in Slovenians. Dennis Stanford, paleoarchaeologist at the Smithsonian Institute of America, is of the opinion that group X was brought across the North Atlantic before 15,000 years.

On the basis of their research, geneticists prove that central Europe was the cradle of the eastern Slavs. (M) (B)

Direction of new research:

Enumerated here is some new data that would be a challenge to Slovenian archaeologists, ethnologists, linguists, and historians; that they do not wave a hand and say that all of this is only accidental and that they further hang their theories on one tree (beech) and wrap history on this theme only, but that they save obsolete theories, thus stirring up through books and study thoroughly

	1) why and from when did linguistic affinity exist between the languages of Basques

	•	and Slovenians. ™

2) when and who named toponyms* in North Africa that are understandable to Slovenians.

3) how and when did genetic groups become related in Africa; camels did not carry them on their backs, but women carried them in their bodies.

* A name that is derived from a place of origin. (Webster's New College Dictionary. 2001)

VIRI:

(B) Belyaeva, O., et al. (2003). Mitochondrial DNA Variations in Russian and Belorussian Populations. Human Biology October, v.75 no.5, pp. 647-660.

(C) Calafell, F., et al. (1996). From Asia to Europe: mitochondrial DNA sequence variability in Bulgarians and Turks. Am. J. Hum. Genet. 60:35-49.

(G) Gutierrez, G., et al. (2002). A Reanalysis of the Ancient Mitochondrial DNA Sequences Recovered from Neandertal Bones. Mol. Biol. Evol.19(8):1359-1366.

(K) Kivisild, T., et al. (1999). Deep common ancestry of Indian and western-Eurasian mitochondrial DNA lineages. Current Biology 9:1331-1334.

(I) Izagirre, N., et al. (1999). An mtDNA Analysis in Ancient Basque Populations :Implications for Haplogroup V as a Marker for a major Paleolithic Expansion from Southwestern Europe. Am. J. Hum. Genet. 65:199-207.

(MM) Maca-Mayer, N., et al. (2003). Molecular Characterization of Pasiegos from Cantabria (Spain). Annals of Human Genetics 67:312-328.

(M) Malyarchuk, B.A., et al. (2003). Mitochondrial DNA Variability in Bosnians and Slovenians. Annals of Human Genetics 67:412-425.

(P) Poloni, E. S., et al. (1997). Human Genetic Affinities for Y-Chromosome P49a,f/Taql Haplotypes Show Strong Correspondence with Linguistics. Am. J. Hum. Genet. 61:1015-1035.

(RA) Rando, J.C., et al. (1998). Mitochondrial DNA analysis of Northwest African populations reveals genetic exchange with European, Near-Eastern, and sub-Saharan populations. Am. J. Hum. Genet. 62: 531-250.

(R) Richards, M., et al. (2000). Tracing European Founder Lineages in the Near Eastern mtDNA Pool. Am. J. Hum. Genet. 67:1251-1276.

(R1) Richards, M., et al. (1997) Reply to Cavalli-Sforza and Minch. Am. J. Hum. Genet. 61:251-254.

(RM) Ridley, M. (2002) trans. Pajer, U. GENOM: Biografija cloveške vrste (Tržic, Slovenija, Ucila International) p.16.

(RZ) Rosser, et al., (2000). Y-Chromosomal Diversity in Europe Is Clinal and Influenced Primarily by Geography, Rather than by Language. Am. J. Hum. Genet. 67:1526-1543.

(S) Smith, F.H., et al. (1999). Direct radiocarbon dates for Vindija G1 and Velika Peæina Late Pleistocene hominid remains. PNAS October 26, 1999 vol. 96 no. 22:12281-12286.

(Š) Škof, L. (2003). STA. Glasilo Kanadskih Slovencev

(ŠS) Škulj, J., Sharda, J.C. (2001). Indo-Aryan and Slavic Affinities. Zbornik prve mednarodne konference: Veneti v etnogenezi srednjeevropskega prebivalstva. ed. Perdih A.& Rant J. (Ljubljana, Slovenija, Jutro) pp.112-121. ISBN 961-6433-06-7

(SG) Sotiroff, G., (1971). Phoenicians, Vencyans, Heneti, Veneti and Wendi. Anthropological Journal of Canada. Vol. 9, No. 4: 5-10

(SO) Semino, O., et al. (2000). The Genetic Legacy of Paleolithic Homo sapiens sapiens in Extant Europeans. Science vol. 290 10 November 1156-1159.

(TM) Tomažic, I., (1999). Sledovi iz davne preteklosti. Slovenci: Kdo smo? Od kdaj in odkod izviramo? ( Ljubljana, Slovenija, Editiones Veneti) pp. 11-12.

(T1) Torroni, A., et al. (1996). Classification of European mtDNAs From an Analysis of three European populations. Genetics 144:1835-1850 (December, 1996)

(T2) Torroni, A., et al. (2001). A Signal, from Human mtDNA, of Postglacial Recolonization in Europe. .Am. J. Hum.Genet.69:844-852.

(T3) Torroni, A., et al. (1998). mtDNA Analysis Reveals a Major Late Paleolithic Population Expansion from Southwestern to Northeastern Europe. Am. J. Hum. Genet. 62:1137-1152.

(TP) Tulajev, P., (2000). Vandali. Veneti: Predki Slavyan / Veneti: Predniki Slovanov (Moskva, Beliye al'vy) pp. 155-157 ISBN 5-7619-0111-0

(Y) The Y Chromosome Consortium (2001). A Nomenclature System for the Tree of Human Y-Chromosomal Binary Haplogroups. Genome Research 12:339-348.

June 16, 2003

RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN INDIAN POPULATIONS AND EUROPEANS

Joseph Skulj, Jagdish C. Sharda, Snejina Sonina, Petr Jandacek

Hindu Institute of Learning

Abstract:

In India as well as in Europe, there are ongoing debates between scholars regarding the original settlers in the respective lands. What ethnic group is indigenous to a particular country and who arrived later and when did the historical event occur; this is being re-examined in the light of new discoveries. Scholars have formulated many theories, based on archaeological finds, historical records and linguistic hypotheses in an attempt to explain the presence of various languages and ethnic groups in particular countries. Now, scientists are applying another scientific tool--genetics-- which is currently used to help the researchers in their quests for knowledge about the historical past.

In Slovenia, there is a debate whether the Slovenians are indigenous to the country or, whether, they arrived 1,500 years ago (Savli 1996). Similarly, on the Indian sub-continent, there is a question whether the Aryans (Indo-European speakers) are autochthonous (Rajaram & Frawley 1997) (Ghosh 1988), or whether they arrived after the Dravidian speakers, just 3,500 years ago (Chatterji 1988) or even much earlier, possibly 10,000 years ago (Kivisild 1999). There are reasonable arguments to support the debate (Ghosh 1988). However, in such debates the scholars do not consider the close linguistic relationship between Sanskrit, the language of the Aryans and the Slavic languages of Europe and also of the present day genetic relationship of Aryans on the Indian sub-continent and the Slavs of Europe. This applies particularly to the Slovenian which is relatively little known, but along with Czech, the most westerly Slavic language.

The main feature of Indian society is caste and scholars speculate that something very like castes were in India even before the Aryan speakers entered India (Majumder 2001). Now, Geneticists have discovered that the upper castes are more similar to Europeans, particularly East Europeans, whereas lower castes are more similar to Asians. The higher the caste, the closer they are to East Europeans (Bamshad et al 2001).

In this paper, we will demonstrate the linguistic and genetic relationship between Aryans of the Indian sub-continent and Slavs of Europe.

INTRODUCTION:

Well known Indian scholar Navaratna S. Rajaram, has noted that there is evidence in the Indian epic literature pointing to connections between Vedic and Puranic records on the one hand, and the languages and mythologies of prehistoric Europe on the other. This suggests linkages between Vedic India and prehistoric Europe, that have long been suspected, but insufficiently explored (Rajaram&Frawley 1997).

It is for this reason that an attempt will be made to explore the linguistic and the genetic linkages between Slavs in Europe and the Aryans (Indo-European speakers) on the Indian sub-continent and to determine when in history the separation between Slavs and Aryans occurred.

DISCUSSION:

Origin of the Aryans:

S. Srikanta Sastri has noted that a number of scholars have advocated a theory that the Aryans are indigenous to the Indian sub-continent and that the expansion or migration of the Aryans started from the Indian sub-continent. Some of the arguments to support this theory are as follows:

--There is no evidence to show that the Vedic Aryans were foreigners or that they migrated into India within traditional memory. There are literary materials available to indicate that they regarded Sapta-Sindhu as their original home. The Vedic Aryans, if at all they came from outside, must have lived in Sapta-Sindhu so many centuries before the Vedic period that they had lost all memory of the original home.

--The linguistic affinities are not positive proofs of Aryan immigration. Other Aryan languages may have came into existence as a result of the contact between migrating Aryans and non-Aryans outside India and Persia.

--Aryans migrated from India, but they were superfluous population of roving tribes and did not leave literary records (Ghosh 1988).

--Rajaram cites Shrikant Talagari who proposed that the presence of Indo-European speakers from India to Ireland going back to prehistoric times may be ascribed to a combination of political and ecological disturbances in the Rigvedic heartland that seem to have taken place in the fifth millennium B.C. (Rajaram & Frawley 1997).

--The Roma (Gypsies) are an example of the out of India immigration. Linguistic evidence suggests, that they are of diverse Indian origin. They became one of the peoples of Europe, when they arrived in the Byzantine Empire 900-1 100 years ago (Gresham et al. 2001).

Prof. B. K. Ghosh, on the other hand, presents arguments, which indicate that India was not the original home of the Aryans:

--The fact that the whole of South India and some parts of North India too are to this day non-Aryan in speech is the strongest single argument against the Indian-home hypothesis, especially as the existence of a Dravidian speech-pocket in Baluchistan suggests, that the whole or at least a considerable part of India was non-Aryan in speech. It may reasonably be argued, that had India been the original home of the Aryans, they would have certainly tried to Aryanize the whole of the sub-continent, before crossing the frontier barriers in quest of adventure.

--The cerebral sounds of Sanskrit which sharply distinguishes it from all other Indo-European speech-families including Iranian, are best explained as the result of Austric and Dravidian influences on the language of the incoming Aryans.

--Some scholars have assumed that blond hair was chief characteristic of the Indo-Europeans. Blond hair was also known in India. The grammarian Patanjali declared blond hair to be one of the essential qualities in a Brahmana. True Brahmanas, therefore should been blondes in the pre-Christian era (Ghosh 1988).

Within the known historical times, the riches of India have been like a magnet that attracted numerous armies to the sub-continent to plunder the wealth, beginning with the Persians. Herodotus wrote almost 2 500 years ago, that the Indians are more numerous than any other nation and they paid to the Persian king Darius, a tribute exceeding that of every other people (Herodotus). The Persians, were followed by the invasion of the Alexander the Great with his Macedonian and Greek army, then by Mongols and last by the British. This underlines the fact, that India was the goal of many and shows the usual path taken by the plundering armies.

Caste and Indian Society:

The main feature of Indian society, seen at its strongest in the rural areas, is caste. A caste is a collection of people who share similar cultural and religious values and practices. Members within a caste generally marry among themselves; inter-caste marriages are a cultural taboo (Majumder 2001).

Contemporary India is a land of enormous human genetic, cultural and linguistic diversity. The social structure of the Indian population is dominated by the Hindu caste system. Most of the population is hierarchically arranged into four main caste classes: Brahmin (priestly class), Kshatriya (warrior class), Vysya (business class) and Sudra (menial labour class). Indian culture and society are also known to have been affected, by multiple waves of migration, that took place in historic and prehistoric times.....The contemporary tribal population are largely Dravidian or Austro-Asiatic speakers....In view of the persistent survival of Dravidian languages in the pockets of Iran, Baluchistan and Afghanistan, some linguists believe that Dravidian speakers came from outside. Others, however, believe that since Dravidian speakers are largely restricted to India, these languages may have developed within India (Roychoudhury et al. 2000).

The Aryan world comprised three classes (varnas): priests, nobles and commoners. Aryans placed their three classes on the indigenous Indian society. The varna organization is hierarchical. Initially, the system had names for two ranks, Brahma and Kshatra, Brahmin being socially higher rank than Kshatriya. The third rank was made of Vis, that is, all the subjects. To this society, a fourth rank was added: Shudra, who had no right to Aryan ritual. In southern India, the menial workers, the so-called "untouchables" were placed in a new varna, Panchama (fifth) (Majumder 2001).

GENETIC INFORMATION:

The recognition of new Y-chromosome markers represents a major leap in the investigation of human genetic diversity (in male lineages, complementing the information from female lineages derived from mitochondrial DNA). The resulting phylogeny supports out-of-Africa origins of our species and opens the way to further insights into prehistoric demography and world prehistory (Renfrew 2000). Applying molecular genetics to questions of early human population history, and hence to major issues in prehistoric archaeology, is becoming so fruitful an enterprise that a new discipline-archaeogenetics-has recently come into being. That many of its applications have so far related to prehistoric Europe is due in part to the detailed archaeological attention devoted to Europe by a series of 19th and 20th century scholars. It is also due in part to the early application of a specific demographic model, the "wave of advance" to explain the chronological patterning that emerged as farming spread across Europe at the onset of the Neolithic period (Renfrew 2001).

Based on the genetic information compiled by Semino and 16 co-authors, they suggest that the present European population arose from the merging of local Paleolithic groups and Neolithic farmers arriving from the Near East after the invention of agriculture in the Fertile Crescent. Two lineages, those characterized by M170 and M173 appear to have been present in Europe since Paleolithic times (Semino et al. 2000).

M173 Lineage-Distribution and Age:

Semino proposes that M173 is an ancient Eurasiatic marker that was brought by or arose in the group of Homo sapiens sapiens who entered Europe and it diffused from east to west 40,000 to 35,000 years ago spreading the Aurignac culture. M 173 lineage is shared by haplotypes Eu18 and Eu19, which characterize about 50% of the European Y chromosomes (Semino et al. 2000).

The frequency of Eu18 is at its highest in the Basques at 90%, 81% in the Irish ( Rosser 2000) and decreases from west to east. In Slovenians it is present at 21%. On the Indian sub-continent it is present at 11% and 12% in Pathan and Sindhi ethnic groups speaking Indo-European languages (Semino et al.2000, Qamar et al.2002).

In contrast, haplotype Eu19, which is also derived from M173 and is distinguished by M17 mutation, is virtually absent from Western Europe. In Basques it is absent (0%). Its frequency increases eastward and is present in Slovenians at 37% and reaches 54% Ukraine, where Eu18 is virtually absent (Semino et al. 2000). Haplotype Eu19 is also found on the Indian sub-continent at 45% and 49% in Pathan and Sindhi language groups (Qamar et al. 2002).

Semino interprets the differentiation and the distribution of haplotypes Eu18 and Eu19 as signature of expansion from isolated population nuclei in the Iberian peninsula for Eu18 and the present Ukraine for Eu19, following the Last Glacial Maximum. In fact, during this glacial period 20,000 to 13,000 years ago, human groups were forced to vacate Central Europe, with the exception of a refuge in northern Balkans (Semino et al. 2000).

In the study by Rosser and 61 co-authors, HG1 which is analogous to Eu18, is found at

~80% in the Celtic speakers (not tested by Semino), confirming that the trend is similar, decreasing from west to east. Haplogroup HG3 which is analogous to Eu19 is not unique to Eastern Europe but is also found in northern Sweden at 19% and in Norway at 31% (Rosser et al. 2000).

Genetic research and studies of the peoples of India show, that when the whole Indian sub-continent is considered, Indians show considerably more genetic similarities with the Caucasoids than with the Negroids (Majumder 1998). To be more precise, a number of researchers have found that Indians share many genetic similarities with the Europeans. Underhill has noted that haplogroups derived from M170 and M173 lineages are found mostly in Europe and the Indus Valley (Underhill et al. 2000). Semino observes that haplogroup Eu19, which appears at the highest concentration in Eastern Europe at between 29%-60%, is also present at substantial frequency in northern India and Pakistan (Semino 2000); calculated at 32% (from information provided in Table 1 Underhill 2000). Some geneticists interpret this as marking the movement of the Kurgan people, from north of the Caspian Sea, dated to ~7,000 years ago (Rosser et al. 2000).

Semino estimates the age of M173 to be ~30,000 years, which appears consistent with the hypothesis that M173 marks the Aurignac settlement in Europe or, at least, predates The Last Glacial Maximum (Semino et al. 2000).

M170 Lineage-Distribution and Age:

Semino proposes that M170 originated in Europe in descendants of men that arrived from the Middle East 20,000 to 25,000 years ago, who have been associated with the Gravettian culture. It has been suggested that Gravettian and Aurignac coexisted for a few thousand years. When human groups were forced to vacate Central Europe, during the Last Glacial Maximum with the exception of a refuge in the northern Balkans, Western Europe was isolated from Central Europe. However, an Epi-Gravettian culture persisted in the area of present-day Austria, the Czech Republic and the northern Balkans. After climatic improvement, this culture spread north and east (Semino et al. 2000).

Semino proposes that the polymorphism M170 from which haplotype Eu7 is derived represents another putative Paleolithic mutation whose age has been estimated to be ~22,000 years. The mutation is most frequent in central Eastern Europe, at 45 % in Croats and 49% in Yugoslavs (Rosser et al. 2000) and also occurs in the Basques that have accumulated a subsequent mutation (M26) that distinguishes Eu8 (Semino et al.2000). It is also present on the Indian sub-continent; Pathan and Sindhi in Pakistan show a frequency of 16% and 9% (Qamar et al. 2002).

Indo-Aryan and European Genetic Affinity:

Indian culture and society are known to have been affected by multiple waves of migration that took place in historic and prehistoric times. A section of Aryan speakers are believed to have migrated first to Iran and from there to north-west of India where they encountered the indigenous people who spoke non-Aryan languages (Roychoudhury et al. 2000).

It is conceivable that the Aryan speakers had greater contact, including genetic admixture, with the Brahmins, who were professionally the torchbearers and promoters of Aryan rituals. The Aryan contact should have been progressively less as one descended the varna ladder. The genetic expectation, therefore, is that the proportion of those genes (or genomic features, such as haplotypes or haplogroups), that "characterized" the Aryan speakers should progressively decline from the highest varna to the lowest and a reverse trend should be observed with respect to those genes that "characterized" the indigenous Indians (Majumder 2001).

From the historically prevalent social structure of Indian populations, it may be predicted, that there has been very little male gene flow across ethnic boundaries. The analysis of DNA samples indicates that there has been virtually no male gene flow among ethnic groups, whereas, there is considerably more female gene flow. The upper castes, while sharing haplotypes with the middle and lower castes, do not share any haplotypes with the tribes (Bhattacharyya et al. 1999).

A close affinity, based on Y chromosome, has been reported between Hindi speaking (Aryan) Indians and Europeans (Quintana-Murci et al. 1999). Bamshad has gone a step further and compared the affinities between the castes and also between the Europeans. He has found that the affinity to Europeans is proportionate to caste rank; the upper castes being most similar to Europeans particularly East Europeans. These findings are consistent with greater West Eurasian male admixture with castes of higher rank. The lower castes, on the other hand, are more similar to Asians. For this comparison, Eastern European samples from Russia and Romania were used (Bamshad et al. 2001).

LANGUAGE AFFINITIES:

The well known geneticist Barbujani observes that humans do not tend to easily cross language boundaries when choosing a partner. This gives languages a great evolutionary significance, because linguistic affinities are also clues to population history. He cites Sokal who has noted that a common language frequently reflects a common origin, and a related language indicates a common origin too, but farther back in time. He was also one of the first to make an intriguing observation that the partial correlations with the language are stronger for the Y chromosome than for mtDNA and suggests that when women were incorporated into a group speaking a different language, they passed to the future generations, their husbands' language (Barbujani 2000).

LINGUISTIC COMPARISONS:

ENGLISH

RUSSIAN

CZECH

SLOVENIAN

SED PG

SANSKRIT

HINDI

PUNJABI

Words associated with water, moisture and other liquids

cloud

mgla (gloom)

mlha (fog)

megla

831

megha

megh

to sprinkle, pour out

marasit'

mžiti

mršcati

831

mrish, marshati

to quaff, drink intox. liquors

zapit'

popijeti

popivati

612

pa, papiyat

pi: da:lana:

cause to drink

poit'

(na)pájeti

pojiti

612

pa, payayati

pilana:

to drink,, swallow

pit'

píti

piti

612

pa, pibati

pina:

foam, froth, saliva

pena

pìna

pena

718

phena

drinking

pit'io

pití

pitje

629

piti

pi:na:

swimming

plavan'e

plavání

plavanje

715

plavana

to swim

plavat'

plavati

715

plu, plavate

moisture, humidity,any liquid

rosa (dew)

rosa

rosa (dew)

869/870

rasa

ras

tears

sliozy

slzy

solze

1189

salila

salil

provided with water

zalityy

zalívan

zalivan

1189

salilavat

a lake, pond

ozero

jezero

1182

sarasa

saras

ras

to bathe, wash, cleanse

snažiti

1266

sna, snasyati

sna:n (bath)

sna:n

water

voda

183

uda,am

moist

vodní

voden

1028/183

voda, udanya

to rain, shower down

marasit'

pršeti

pršiti

1011/711

varsh &prush-noti

barasna:

to inundate, to submerge

zaplaviti

poplaviti

715

apuplavat

aplavit karana

watery, aquatic

barje

943

varya

Words associated with fire

relating to fire

ogneniy

ohen'í

ognjen

130

agneya

fire

ogon'

ohen'

ogenj

agni

a:g, agni

agg

fire-pan

ohništì

ognjišce

agnishtas

agnikoshth

to be burnt

opéci

opeci

575

apaci

smoke

dym

dy'm

dim

518

dhuma

dhua:n

firewood

drova

drévo

drva

502

dru/daru

drum (tree)

to burn, to shine

goret'

hoøeti

goreti, žareti

379

ghri, gharnoti

fire

ohnivi (fiery)

žgan (fiery)

408

jaganu

yagana

crackle as fire

zharet'

žár (glow)

žareti (to glow)

424

jri=gri, jarate

fire

køesati (strike fire)

kres (June fire)

306

kris'anu

N. of Agni

Kresnik?

306

kris'anu

krishanu

roasting

pechen'e

pecení

pecenje

614

pacana

pa:chanam

pakana

to cook, bake, roast, boil

pech'

péci

peci

575

pac-ati

paka:na

fire-pit, fireplace,any wall

pech

pec

pec; pecina

573

paksha

to puff, blow into

pokurit'

podkouøiti

podkuriti

718

phutkri,-karoti

phu:nk

warmth

teplo

toplina

442

tapa

tapana

tree

derevo

drevo

439

taru

fire

ogon'

ohen'

ogenj

933

vahni

bahni

fireplace

ognishche

ohnište

ognjišce

934

vahnisthana

agnikoshth

ENGLISH

RUSSIAN

CZECH

SLOVENIAN

SED PG

SANSKRIT

HINDI

PUNJABI

Words associated with food, food preparation and consumption:

foopreparation and eating

to eat

yest'

jísti

jesti

ad, atsyati

to be eaten, what may be eaten

s'ieden

jídlo

jeden

adaniya

food

yeda

jídlo

jed

adya

to suck

sosat'?

cucati

cuzati, sesati

401

c'ush,-ati

chu:sana

sucking

sosanie'?

cucání

cuzanje

401

c'ushana

chu:sana:

to give suck, nourish

doit'

dojiti (animal)

dojiti

520

dhe, dhayati

coming from cattle

goviadina

hovadina

goveje

351

gavyaya

beef soup

goviazhia yushka

goveja juha

856

gavyaya yusha

to consume or devour, eat

pásti se (graze)?

gostiti se, kositi

377

ghas,-ati

food

kosilo (meal)

377

ghasi

food, meadow or pasture grass

kosení

koša

377

ghasa

gha:s

be thirsty; to open the mouth

zhazhdat'; zevat

žíznit

žejati; zehati, zevati

424

jeh, jehate

jamhai

victuals, food

živež

423

jivatu

vessel, box, bucket, store-room

kovsh

koš

koš, košara

314

kos'a, kosha

karchchhi

granary, store-room

kašca

314

koshtaka

kothi

milk, thickened milk

syr (cheese)

syr

sir (cheese)

329

kshira

khi:r

khi

to gnaw, nibble; to test

kushat'; x

pokoštovati:skoušet skoušet

(po)kušati; skušati

297

kush,-ati; kush,-nati

flesh, meat; month

miaso; miesiats

maso: mesíc

meso; mesec

814

mas

mans

mas

stick or spoon for stirring

meshalka

méchacka

mešalka

831

mekshana

to stir up, mix, mingle

meshat'

míchatí

mešati

815

miksh, mekshayati

missa

to drink

pit'

pítí

piti

612

pa, pibati/papiyat

pina:

one who bakes or roasts

pekar'

pekaø

pek

575

paktri

to cook very much, burn

popech'

pøepéci

popeci

575

papac'yate

paka:na:

mutual or reciprocal drinking

popíjení

popivanje

612

papiti

food, nourishment

pishcha

pica

626

pita

saturated, filled with

napitan

pitan

629

pita

filled, full, abundant

polon, polnyi

plny

poln

642

purna

puran

soup, broth

sup

župa

1242

supa

sup

eating

jemati (zdravilo)

856

yemana=jemana

jema:na

Verb "to be"

I am

X; yesm (archaic) ((((archaic0 ((archaic)

jsem

sem

asmi

x (hu:n)

you are

X; yesi (archaic)

jsi

asi

x (hain)

he, she, it is

yest

x (je)

asti

x (hai)

x (hastiti-existence)

sva

svah

sta

sthah

sta

stah

we are

X; (yest)

jsme

smo

smah

x (hain)

you are

X; (yest)

jste

ste

stha

x (hain)

they are

X; (yest)

x (jsou)

x (so)

santi

x (hain)

ENGLISH

RUSSIAN

CZECH

SLOVENIAN

SED PAGE

SANSKRIT

HINDI

PUNJABI

Numerals

one---------1

odin

néjaký(someone)

eden:neki (someone) ((neki)((someone ()someone) (someone)

eka

two---------2

dva

dvi (dva)

three------3

tri

tøi

tri

ti:n

four--------4

chetyre

ctýøi

štiri (cetveri)

c'atur

cha:r

five---------5

piat'

pét

pet

panc' (peta-open hand)

pa:nch

pa:nja

six---------6

shest'

šest

shash, shat

chhah

chhe

seven-----7

siem'

sedm

sedem

saptan

sa:t

satt

eight------8

vasiem'

osm

osem

ashtan

a:th

a:t-tha

nine-------9

dieviat'

devét

devet

navan

nau

ten-------10

diesiat'

deset

das'an

das

eleven---11

odinnadsat'

jedenáct

enajst

ekadas'an

eka:dash

ekadasi

twelve---12

dvenadsat'

dvananáct

dvanajst

dvadas'an

dva:dash

dvadasi

hundred-100

sut', sto

sto

s'ata

sau, shat

Words associated with pain, killing and death

Legend:

Russian transliteration follows The Random House College Dictionary guidelines

Czech c is pronounced as CH, š as SH, ž as ZH, ì as YE, c as TS

Slovenian pronunciation is similar to Russian; c is pronounced as CH; j as Y; š as SH and ž as ZH, c as TS

Sanskrit transliteration follows A Sanskrit-English Dictionary compiled by Sir Monier Monier-Williams, where English is used as a base and C' is pronounced as CH; S' as SH and sometimes as S. For the purposes of this comparison, long vowels are not indicated, nor is a distinction made between dentals and cerebrals. This is the reason why SED page number is shown.

Hindi and Punjabi use English transliteration; long vowels are indicated by-:-but no distinction is made between dentals and cerebrals.

X indicates that there is no corresponding word with similar sound and meaning.

DATING THE SETTLEMENTS OF PEOPLES:

Dating of the Separation of Europeans and Indians:

Barbujani & Bertorelle propose that in the Upper Paleolithic, around 40,000 years ago, Neanderthal people were replaced by anatomically modern humans, who moved in from Levant, and settled in many areas of the continent. At the latest Glacial Maximum, some 18,000 years ago, Northern and Central Europe were largely covered with glaciers. Human presence then seems restricted to the warmest regions or refugia, and only later reappears more to the North, accompanying the retreat of the ice sheet (Barbujani & Bertorelle 2001).

Adams and Otte propose that the climatic instability led to the language spread. They postulate that any one population group that acquired both the general cultural traits that caused it to spread rapidly out of a refugium and the technology to enable it to do so, would have experienced a rapid population growth. There is a possibility that the population increase causing the spread of Indo-European languages occurred at the end of the Last Glacial Maximum about 14,500 years ago. However, another event that might have affected the spread was the widespread cold, dry event that occurred 8,200 years ago (Adams & Otte 1999).

Roychoudhury et al. have found, that on the basis of the analyses of mtDNA of the ethnic populations of India, a higher Caucasoid admixture in the northern Indian populations and that

there is evidence that western Eurasian specific haplogroups and subclusters were introduced into India with the entry of Aryan speakers from western and central Asia (Roychoudhury 2001).

Based on genetic data Kivisild disagrees with a commonly held hypothesis which suggests a massive Indo-Aryan invasion into India some 4,000 years ago. Based on the investigations of the maternally inherited mitochondrial DNA, he estimates that the divergence between Europeans and Indians took place some of 9,300+/- 3,000 years ago. However, the investigation is not able distinguish whether there were one or many migration waves, or whether there was a continuous long lasting gradual admixture. The results, nevertheless, do not support a recent massive Aryan invasion into India, nor do the results support Indian penetration into western Eurasia (Kivisild 1999).

Richards et al. estimate that based on mtDNA results over 90% of the present European populations were in their present locations prior to the Bronze Age. Only 7% of the population came to the Alps and 8% to Southeastern Europe since the Bronze Age. Most of the populations were present in their present locations in Europe since the Lower Upper Paleolithic ~14,000 years ago. About10% of the lineages, date to the first colonization of Europe, by anatomically modern humans during the Early Upper Paleolithic (EUP) (Richards 2000).

About 20% of the lineages arrived during the Neolithic. Most of the other lineages seem most likely to have arrived during the Middle Upper Paleolithic (MUP) and to have re-expanded during the Lower Upper Paleolithic (LUP) (Richards 2000).

Despite numerous similarities between Sanskrit and Slovenian, there is no common recognizable terminology for metals. The discovery and dating of the "Ice Man" in the South Tyrol with his copper axe, indicates that metals were known 5,200 years ago. This could also be construed as an indication that the Slavic and Aryan languages separated before metallurgy was discovered.

OBSERVATIONS AND CONCLUSIONS:

There is a significant correlation between linguistics and genetics in the Slavs and the Aryans on the Indian sub-continent. This is particularly true when the genetic comparison is made on the basis of paternally inherited DNA haplogroups on the Y chromosome. The genetic profiles of the Slavic speakers resemble rather closely those of the Aryan speakers. There is also a notable linguistic similarity between the Slavic languages and the Aryan languages such as Hindi and Punjabi, despite the fact that Aryan languages have been profoundly influenced by Dravidian neighbors and the invaders that have come to India over the millennia.

Slavic languages preserve many grammatical and lexical similarities that they share with Sanskrit that are no longer found in modern Indian languages such as Hindi and Punjabi.

Slovenian in particular appears to be very archaic, because it still preserves a number of grammatical and lexical forms that are no longer present in some other Slavic languages nor in the Aryan languages.

Slovenian and Sanskrit have more grammatical and lexical similarities than, say, Slovenian and Germanic languages, despite the geographic proximity. Approximately 20% of Slovenian vocabulary corresponds to the ancient Vedic Sanskrit in sound and meaning and 10% to Classical Sanskrit, but considerably less in Hindi and Punjabi. This indicates that the older the language, the greater is the similarity. This would also indicate that there has been little linguistic interaction since the Vedas have been written between the Slavs and the Aryans.

The linguistic similarity of about 20% between Slovenian and Vedic Sanskrit is significant, because the present day similarity between Slovenian language and the neighboring German is only about 6%. On the other hand, Slovenian has about 80% of the vocabulary that is similar to Russian, in sound and meaning, despite much greater geographical separation.

Populations with genetic similarities as defined by haplotypes Eu7 and Eu19 show a greater linguistic similarity, even when geographically separated, than the neighbors with lesser genetic correlation.

Genetic results do not support any massive population changes during the last 3,000 years. The bulk of the population both in Europe and on the Indian sub-continent can be considered to be indigenous to the lands they now occupy, despite some language replacements.

REFERENCES:

Adams, J., Otte M. (1999). Did Indo-European Languages spread before farming? Current Anthropology 40: 73-77.

Bamshad, M., Kivisild, T., Watkins, W.S., et al., (2001). Genetic Evidence on the Origins of Indian Caste Populations. Genome Research Vol. 11, 6: 994-1004.

Barbujani, G. (1997). DNA Variation and Language Affinities. Am. J. Hum. Genet. 61:1011-1014.

Barbujani, G., Bertorelle, G. (2001). Genetics and the population history of Europe. Proc. Natl. Acad. Sci. USA 98: 23-25.

Bhattacharyya, N. P. (1999). Negligible Male Gene Flow Across Ethnic Boundaries in India, Revealed by Analysis of Z-Chromosomal DNA Polymorphisms. Genome Research Vol. 9, Issue 8, 711-719.

Chatterji, S. K. (1988)."Race Movements and Prehistoric Culture," in The Vedic Age: The History and Culture of the Indian People, ed. Majumdar R. C., Bombay. Bharatiya Vidya Bhavan, p 143-171.

Ghosh, B. K. (1988)."The Aryan Problem," in The Vedic Age: The History and Culture of the Indian People, ed. Majumdar, R. C., Bombay. Bharatiya Vidya Bhavan, p.205-221.

Gresham, D., Morar, B., Underhill, P. A., et al. (2001). Origins and Divergence of the Roma (Gypsies). Am. J. Hum. Genet. 69:1314-1331.

Herodotus, The Persian Wars, trans. George Rawlinson (Toronto: Random House Inc.1942), p.259.

Kivisild, T., Bamshad, M. J., Kaldma, K., et al. (1999). Deep common ancestry of Indian and western Eurasian mitochondrial DNA lineages. Current Biology 9:1331-1334.

Majumder, P.P. (1998). People of India: Biological diversity and affinities. Evol.Anthropol. 6: 100-110.

Majumder, P.P. (2001). Indian Caste Origins: Genomic Insights and Future Outlook. Genome Research 11:931-932.

Qamar, R., Ayub, Q., Mohyuddin, A., et al. (2002). Y-Chromosomal DNA Variation in Pakistan. Am. J. Hum. Genet. 70:1107-1124.

Quintana-Murci, L., Semino, O., Poloni, E.S., et al. (1999). Y-Chromosome specific YCAII, DYS19 and YAP polymorphisms in human populations: A comparative study. Am. Hum. Genet. 63: 153-166.

Rajaram, S.R., Frawley, D. (1997). Vedic Aryans and the Origins of Civilization. New Delhi. Voice of India. ISBN 81 85990 36 0

Renfrew, C., Forster, P., Hurles, M. (2000). The past is within us. nature genetics-volume 26-november: 253-254.

Renfrew, C.(2001). From molecular genetics to archaeogenetics. Proceedings National Academy of Sciences. April 24, vol. 98, no. 9: 4830-4832.

Richards, M., Macauley, V., Hickey, E., et al. (2000). Tracing European Founder Lineages in the Near Eastern mtDNA Pool. Am. J. Hum. Genet. 67:1251-1276.

Rosser, Z.H., Zerjal, T., Hurles, M.E., et al. (2000). Y-Chromosomal Diversity in Europe is Clinal and Influenced Primarily by Geography, Rather than by Language. Am. J. Hum. Genet. 67:1526-1543.

Roychoudhury, S., Roy, S., Dey, B., et al. (2000). Fundamental genomic unity of ethnic India is revealed by analysis of mitochondrial DNA. Current Science Vol. 79, No.9, 10. November: 1182-1192..

Roychoudhury, S., Roy, S., Basu, A., et al. (2001). Genomic structures and population histories of linguistically distinct tribal groups of India. Hum. Genet. 109: 339-350.

Savli, J., Bor, M., Tomazic, I., trans. Skerbinc, A.(1996). Veneti: First builders of European community- Tracing the history and language of early ancestors of Slovenes. Wien. Boswell: Editiones Veneti. ISBN 0 9681 236 0 0

Semino, O., Passarino, G., Oefner, P., et al. (2000). The Genetic Legacy of Paleolithic Homo sapiens sapiens in Extant Europeans: A Y Chromosome Perspective. Science Vol. 290, 10. November: 1155-1159.

Underhill, P.A., Shen, P., Lin, A.A., et al. (2000). Y chromosome sequence variation and the history of human populations. nature genetics volume 26, november 2000.

April 4, 2003

Re: Delo article

Dear prof. Priestly,

In the Attachments, I am sending you, as a courtesy, a letter that I sent to the editor of Znanost in the Slovenian newspaper Delo,

Regards, J. Skulj

Cenjeni g. urednik:

Re-"O venetscini in slovenscini"

Pred kratkim, to je 10-3-2003, ste objavili clanek mojega kanadskega sodrzavljana prof. dr. T. Priestly-ja z naslovom "O venetscini in slovenscini". Uceni profesor se cudi, da se dosti bralcev ne strinja z njegovimi zakljucki. Jaz sem eden od tistih ki se strinja z uporabo primerjevalne metode, toda ne strinjam se z njegovimi zakljucki. V temu njegovemu clanku ni konkretnih primerov, s pomocjo katerih bi lahko bralci sami presodili, ce so pristopi in zakljucki ucenega profesorja pravilni. Za primere je treba prebrati njegov referat, ki ga je podal novembra 2000 na konvenciji AAASS v Denver, Colorado USA, ali pa razpravo, ki je bila objavljena z majhnimi spremembami v reviji Slovene Studies Vol.19, No. 1-2, 1997 tiskana July, 2002.

V tej razpravi uceni profesor poda pravila primerjalne metode in da tudi primere. On zakljuci, da sta nemscina in anglescina skoro gotovo sorodna jezika na bazi sledecega primera in statisticne ocene:

English

good

better

German

gut

besser

On tudi ne verjame, da bi bila ta sorodnost med nemscino in anglescino samo nakljucna, saj je racunana na 0,000 000 125 ali ena na miljon, in ce se uposteva se presezniska oblika best, postane to skoro astronomsko visoko. Tako je zelo malo verjetno, da je sorodnost samo po nakljucju.

Temu zakljucku ne bo nihce nasprotoval, ker je ze vsak student, ki malo pozna anglescino in nemscino, prisel do tega zakljucka, uporabljajoc primerjalno metodo slicno kot jo prikazuje profesor. On citira pri tej primerjavi Johanno Nichols, toda ne pokaze kako je nastala ta stevilka. Toda ce preberemo njen referat, vidimo, da ko ona primerja samo korena, good in bett-, ima vsak koren moznost 5 na 10 000, da je nakljucen (0,05x0,2x0,05=0,000 5). Ona ocenjuje in daje vsakemu soglasniku vrednost 0,05 in vsakemu samoglasniku vrednost 0,2. Tukaj tudi uposteva malo slovnicno paradigmo, ki je prikazana, ker obstoji moznost, da je good pozitiv; ce se ta uposteva, potem je celotni verjetnostni racun naslednji 0,05x0,2x0,05x0,05x0,2x0,05x0,5= 0,000 000 125 ali ena na miljon.

V slovenscini vidi prof. Priestly tudi sorodnost in istoizvornost med rozanskim in dolenjskim narecjem in navaja 12 primerov:

Roz.

Dol.

Meaning

qrawa

krava

`cow'

qas'a

kas'a

`porridge'

qura

kura

`hen'

roc'e

roke

`hand, nom. pl.'

itd.

Potem da tudi navodila, da je zaradi boljsih izidov potrebno to primerjavo narediti za vse zvoke in za vecino besednjaka in je ocitno, da taka primerjava zahteva veliko casa in truda. "Since a thorough application of CM involves repeating, what is exemplified here for all the sounds of the two languages and a large portion of their vocabulary, it can be seen that the procedure for applying it to all the possible cognates sets in the two languages is a long and arduous one". Potem zakljuci, da primerjalna metoda deluje in da so izidi skoraj vedno zadovoljivi, ce je zadosti primernih podatkov: "---given enough suitable data-its results are always acceptable".

Tukaj se pa pokaze njegova velika nedoslednost. Pri slovenskih primerjavah z venetscino on ne dopusca uporabe statistike na nacin, kot je to naredil pri primerjavi anglescine in nemscine, ampak bi mu moral nekdo pokazati za skoro cel slovar primrjav, predno bi on priznal sorodstvo dveh jezikov. V anglescini in nemscini ni tezko najti vec primerjav, toda vseeno se uceni profesor zadovolji z delno paradigmo. Tudi v slovenskih narecjih ni nobene tezave poiskati vec vzorcev. Tezave nastanejo pri primerjavi venetscine in slovenscine, ker ni polnih paradigm, da bi lahko nekdo zadovoljil profesorjeve samovoljne pogoje.

Drugi jezikoslovci, kot na primer Johanna Nichols, pa gledajo na primerjalno metodo drugace. Ne vidijo je samo kot odklonilno, temvec tudi kot nakazalno. Ona citira Meillet-a, ki opaza, da na splosno samo slovarsko pricanje se ni popoln dokaz genetske sorodnosti, toda nekatere besede so zadosti dolge, da se jih lahko uporabi kot dobro diagnozo. Tudi jezikoslovec Lyle Campbell uporablja samo delno slovnicno paradigmo hetitskega glagola biti (to be), da uvrsti hetitski jezik med indo-evropsko jezikovno skupnost.

Ce obrnemo naso pozornost na venetscino, naletimo na velike tezave, ker se niso ohranile cele knjiznice s slovarji in slovnicnimi knjigami, kjer bi lahko iskali celovite slovnicne paradigme. Ohranili so se samo skromni napisi; najvec je napisanega na Atestinskih tablicah in tukaj se lahko prebere delna slovnicna paradigma, toda uceni profesor tega ne vidi ali noce videti in seveda tudi ne uposteva.

On omenja med drugim angleskega sodnika sir William Jones-a, ki je delal v Indiji, katerega smatrajo za oceta jezikoslovja, ker je odkril in leta 1796 naznanil sorodnost med sanskrtom in drugimi jeziki kot so grscina in latinscina. Videl je tudi manjso sorodnost med sanskrtom in gotscino ter keltscino. Slovanskih jezikov ni omenil, ker jih najbrz ni poznal. On tudi ni naredil nic nadrobnih primerjav; dal je samo vodilno misel, da so potem drugi raziskovali te jezikovne sorodnosti naprej.

Jezikoslovec prof. dr. Charles Bryant-Abraham, v Zborniku prve mednarodne konference `Veneti v Etnogenezi Srednjeevropskega Prebivalstva", stran 49, gleda na delo Bora v isti luci, kot gledajo jezikoslovci na Jones-a: "Matej Bor....was a courageous pioneer.....All future Venetic scholarship, will forever remain indebted to him. Like the work of every pioneer, the field of inquiry he so thoroughly advanced will necessarily see many refinements in the years to come. But it must always be remembered: he was an intellectual father of Venetic studies". Prevod: Matej Bor....je bil pogumni utiralec nove poti.....Vsi bodoci venetologi mu bodo dolzni hvaleznost. Kot delo vsakega pionirja, bodo tudi njegove raziskave, ki jih je tako odlicno pomaknil naprej, v bodoce delezne

oplemenitenja. Ne sme se pa pozabiti: on je bil idejni oce (novih) venetskih raziskav.

Delo se nadaljuje. Mag. V. Vodopivec je v istem Zborniku podal statisticne primerjave venetskih zacetnih korenov iz Atetinskih tablic in statisticno dokazal, da je sorodnost med venetscino in slovenscino precej vecja kot pa sorodnost med venetscino in germanskimi ter romanskimi jeziki.

(Dr. Bryant-Abraham, ceprav amerikanec iz Texasa, ima tudi povezavo s Kanado; doktorat v jezikoslovju je prejel na francosko govoreci univerzi Universite de Montreal. Preje pa je studiral francoscino, hebrejscino, nemscino, jezikoslovje in iranske predmete; raziskoval je vendski (Wendish) jezik v Nemciji na University of Cologne; jezikoslovno delo je tudi vkljucevalo cescino, bolgarscino, pruscino in litvanscino.)

Prof. Priestly citira Bora in njegove slovnicne oblike: "jekaje, jekah, jekab, jekat, jekais, jekar, jekas, jekap, jekan jekam, jekal, jekak, jekaj, jekad, jekav" in potem zakljuci, da ti primeri ne dajo Boru celotne slovnicne paradigme. To je seveda res. Do sedaj arheologi se niso nasli venetskih slovnicnih knjig, kjer bi bilo zapisano tocno, kaksen abecedni red so imeli. Toda statisticno je tukaj vec sorodnosti kot pa pri njegovi primerjavi: "good vs. gut ter better vs. besser".

Ce vzamemo metodo primerjave za delno slovnicno paradigmo po Nichols-ovi, lahko primerjamo statisticno, kaksna je moznost, da je sorodnost nakljucna.

venetscina:

ekat

ekam

ekas

slovenscina:

jekati

jekam

jekas

nedolocnik

1. os. edn.

2. os. edn

0,2x0,05x0,2x0,05

0,2x0,05x0,2x0,5

skupno

(0,0001)

(0,000 000 000 001)

To samo kaze, kako malo je verjetno, da so te sorodnosti nakljucne; da je ta sorodnost nakljucna, je moznost samo ena na biljon. Tudi ce primerjamo oekat, oekam, oekas z objokati, objokujem, objokujes, dobimo slicne izide.

V svojem referatu prof. Priestly med drugim kritizira Bora, ker Bor bere in razlaga da: "v han-into the fire" ter " v ougon-into the fire" pomenijo eno in isto, to je v ogenj. Da je taka razlaga mozna, se vidi iz sanskrta, to je jezika indijskih Ved. Tudi tam je vec besed za ogenj in Borova razlaga za venetske izraze je sprejemljiva, ker sta se oba jezika govorila v skoro isti dobi. Tukaj navajam sanskrtske primere:

Vahni-ogenj

vahnisthana-ognjisce

Agni-ogenj

agnisthas--ognjisce

Kot podlago za glavno kritiko Borovega dela pa prof. Priestly vidi v menjavi glasov /v/ in /b/ pri branju venetskih napisov. Bor se sklicuje na izgovorjavo na Primorskem in pravi da na Primorskem ljudje zamenjujejo /v/ in /b/, kar poznamo kot betatizem. Toda uceni profesor trdi, da je to napaka. Na drugi strani pa prof. Bryant-Abraham misli, da gre to za narecne razlike, ki jih bo treba se raziskati.

S takim misljenjem se strinja tudi kanadski jezikoslovec John Hewson, ki pravi: "Every language is, for a start, a collection of different dialects, and the same must be considered true of those proto languages we try to model our reconstructions." Prevod: Vsak jezik je, za zacetek, zbirka razlicnih narecij in je treba upostevati, da je to res tudi za tiste prvotne jezike za katere hocemo oblikovati nase rekonstrukcije.

Tudi tukaj je vazno, da pogledamo na ta pojav se iz kaksnega drugega vidika. V postev pride napr. sanskrt zaradi starosti in nespremenjenosti . Jezikoslovec O. Jespersen pravi: "The language of the old sacred hymns had become in many points obsolete, but religion required that not one iota of these revered texts should be altered, and a scrupulous oral tradition kept them unchanged from generation to generation in every minute particular." Prevod: Jezik starih svetih hvalnic je ze postal na vec mestih zastarel , toda verski obredi so zahtevali da se ne spremeni svetih besedil niti za malenkost, in zelo natancno ustno izrocilo jih je prenasalo nespremenjene iz roda v rod v vsaki najmanjsi nadrobnosti.----Za sanskrt pravi slovnicar W.D.Whitney tudi tole: "From an early period in the history of the language, but increasingly later, b and v exchange with one another, or fail to be distinguished in the manuscripts....." prevod: Od zgodnje dobe v zgodovini jezika, posebno pozneje se b in v zamenjujeta ali pa ju v rokopisih ne razlocujejo. Toda vzlic temu je sanskrt ohranil fonema /v/ in /b/ in tudi jezik hindi se ohranja /v/ in tudi /b/. V bengalscini pa prevladuje /v/ namesto prvotnega /b/.

Za nekaj primerov lahko pogledamo v M. Monier-Williams-ov slovar `A Sanskrit-English Dictionary', da vidimo kako se /v/ in /b/ zamenjujeta:

Badisa, m., f. (also written vadisa and valisa ) a hook, fish-hook-trnek

Barbara, mfn. (also written varvara ) non-Aryans, barbarians-barbari

Vadaba, f. (also written vadava, badava, badaba ) a female horse, mare-kobila

Prof. Priestly pravi, da primerjalna metoda dela avtomaticno. Toda preje omenjeni kanadski jezikoslovec, John Hewson ugotavlja, da jezikoslovje nikoli ne more biti eksaktna znanost, ker eksaktne znanosti obravnavajo mehanicne zakone. "Linguistics can never be an exact science, since exact sciences deal with mechanical laws....." Kakor pri vseh metodah, tudi pri primerjalni, je vazno, kateri podatki so sprejeti in kateri so zavrzeni, ker to lahko vpliva na izid studij. Sortiranja podatkov pa primerjalna metoda ne dela avtomaticno, to je v veliki meri odvisno od predsodkov cloveka, ki uporablja to metodo. Kakor pri vseh metodah, tudi pri primerjalni, je samo ena stvar avtomaticna---"Garbage in garbage out!" Prevod: Ce das smeti noter bos dobil smeti ven! In to dela do precejsne mere prof. Priestly, kar se tice venetskih raziskav, ker se noce tako poglobiti v venetske raziskave, kot je to naredil Bor.

Jezikoslovci tudi polagajo precej vaznosti krajevnim imenom (toponyms). Tukaj citiram Lyle Campbell-a: "Linguistic aspect of place names very often permit historical inferences about languages and the people who spoke them......". Prevod: Krajevna imena so iz jezikoslovnega vidika pripomocek, po katerem se lahko naredi zgodovinske sklepe o jezikih in o ljudeh ki so jih govorili....----. On pravi, da imena, ki se koncujejo na -caster, -cester, in -chester pricajo v zgodovini o rimski okupaciji v Angliji. Prav tako tudi imena ki se koncujejo na -by , ki znaci da je to vas ali mesto, dajo vedeti da so skandinavskega izvora in da so tja prisli Skandinavci. Prav tako v srednji ameriski drzavi Guatemali indijansko pleme Xincan sedaj zivi na zelo majhnem ozemlju. Toda na podlagi krajevnih imen, ki imajo etimoloski pomen v jeziku xincan in ne v drugih jezikih, zakljucuje, da so Xincanci prebivali vcasih na precej vecjem ozemlju.

Cudim se ucenemu profesorju, da ne opazi tega tudi pri nas v Kanadi, kjer na vsakem koraku naletimo na indijanska imena, ki se pricajo o prvotnih prebivalcih te sirne in krasne dezele. Zelo se cudim in sem obenem presenecen, da on ne vidi ali noce videti nobene vezi z etimoloskem delom slovenskih raziskovalcev kot so Savli, Verbovsek, Zunkovic in drugi, ki vidijo v krajevnih imenih tisti pomen kot Lyle Campbell, ter jih razlagajo in potem delajo zakljucke slicno kakor jezikoslovci kot je on .

Ko prebiram znanstveno raziskovalno delo slovenskih raziskovalcev kot so Bor, Savli, Tomazic, Verbovsek in Zunkovic ne vidim nicesar kar bi zasluzilo posmehovanje. Rezultate njihovega dela podpira sedaj tudi genetska znanost.

Osmesuje pa profesor sam sebe s svojimi izjavami, ker obljublja stvari ki jih ne more narediti. On pravi, da lahko dokaze sorodnost dolocenega jezika (skupaj z narecji) s skoraj katerimkoli drugim. Prav, pa naj naredi to! Vzame naj slovenscino z narecji in enega od jezikov, ki jih govorijo na Filipinih, kot so tagalong, palawan ali cebuano in naj prikaze toliko sorodnosti kot jo je prikazal Bor med slovenscino in venetscino. Izbral sem te jezike ker rezultate lahko z zeno sama preveriva, kje je kaksna sorodnost, ker ne verjamem vsega kar prof. Priestly napise. Namrec, pred dvemi leti sem obljubil ucenemu profesorju, da dam njemu $10 000 (deset tisoc dolarjev), ce bo statisticno dokazal da je anglescina bolj sorodna sanskrtu, kot pa je slovenscina. Do sedaj se ni pokazal svoje primerjave in se vedno potrpezljivo cakam s cekom v roki, kdaj bo prisel na dan s svojimi dokazi. Na videz bi moralo biti to zelo lahko, ker je anglescina zelo bogat jezik in je prevzela v svoje besedisce ogromno iz latinscine, grscine in keltscine in potem iz francoscine in skandinavskih jezikov. Toda v resnici obstoja vecja sorodnost med sanskrtom in slovanskimi jeziki, posebno s slovenscino, ki je blizja sanskrtu kot pa ruscina, ceprav so Rusi geografsko dosti blizje Indiji kot pa Slovenci.

Joseph Skulj (P. Eng.)

Hindu Institute of Learning

Toronto, Canada

March 17, 2003

Re: Linguistic and genetic approach to pre-history

Cenjeni dr. Mavretic,

Morda Vas bo zanimalo kaj Indijci mislijo ko vidijo primerjavo slovenšcine z indijskimi jeziki, posebno s sanskrtom.

Dr. Das je Indijc, porocen z Nemko; njegov hobby je zgodovina. On je bil e veckrat v Evropi in raziskuje mitologijo, zgodovino, toponomijo in kulturno dedišcino v srednji Evropi. Namerava iti tudi v Ukrajino da tam preuci sorodnosti z indijsko kulturo.

Lep pozdrav, Joe Škulj

***

For additional information please read Dr. Savli's studies on Vindia

From: Bikul Das

To: Joseph Skulj

March 16, 2003

Subject: Re: Linguistic and genetic approach to pre-history

Dear Mr.Skulj,

Your depth of research is excellent. I am very much surprised to learn that Slovenian language is so close to Sanskrit. It is really amazing to see the connection that we Indian have in this world. But what surprised me most is the delay in finding such connection between Slovenia (and other Slavic languages) and Sanskrit. What was our people (and also your people) doing for last 100 years? In India we hardly hear about Slovenia or Croatia. And, yet deep in the Eastern Alps we have our own people living who speak a

similar language like us. It is just beyond our imagination. The slow uncovering of the missing link shows that we have much to learn from the history and cultures of Indo-European, and that it is the time that ancient Vedic culture is again revived in your and other Slavic countries. I am very happy to learn the link between us and the Slavic (I do not like this Slavic name as it reminds me of the oppressive Byzantine and Ottaman empire) culture. Thank you very much, Mr.Skulji, for giving me this oppourtunity to read your paper and I look forward to meet you again, with best regards,

Bikul

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From: Joseph Skulj

To: Bikul Das

March 11, 2003

Subject: Linguistic and genetic approach to pre-history

Dear Dr. Das,

In the Attachments, I am sending you a couple of papers that Mr. Sharda and I wrote and which I presented in Slovenia. These are the papers that I mentioned during our interesting discussion.

Regards, Joe Skulj

March 4, 2003

Odgovor dr. Stihu

Cenjeni dr. Stih:

ETNOGENEZA:

Moja zena je Filipinka. Moji otroci so rojeni v Kanadi. Dva sinova sta porocena s Kanadcankama slovenskega porekla; ena hcerka je imela fanta Kanadcana, njegovo poreklo je bilo albansko in italijansko; druga hcerka je porocena s Kanadcanom keltskega porekla; najmlajsi sin pa ima dekle ki je rojena v Kanadi in je portugalskega porekla;.